From Jim Gilliam's blog archives
Israel, Palestine, Lebanon, Syria, Iraq... and Iran
July 14, 2006 10:31 AM
I'm still trying to get my head around what's been happening in the Middle East the last few days. See Arthur Silber, Sy Hersh, Digby, The Agonist and even Fox News' John Gibson.
One fact that stands out. Wednesday, after the Hizballah attacks, Condi Rice, clearly caught by surprise, issued a quick statement. A couple hours later, the White House issued this statement: (bolding mine)
Today Hizballah terrorists operating from Lebanon kidnapped two Israeli soldiers and launched rocket attacks against civilian targets in Israel. The United States condemns in the strongest terms this unprovoked act of terrorism, which was timed to exacerbate already high tensions in the region and sow further violence. We also hold Syria and Iran, which have provided long-standing support for Hizballah, responsible for today's violence. We call for the immediate and unconditional release of the Israeli soldiers.
Hizballah's terrorist operations threaten Lebanon's security and are an affront to the sovereignty of the Lebanese Government. Hizballah's actions are not in the interest of the Lebanese people, whose welfare should not be held hostage to the interests of the Syrian and Iranian regimes. We reiterate the international community's insistence that all parties in the region fulfill their obligations under UN Security Council resolutions 1559 and 1680, and cease all support for Hizballah.
And then the next day, Israel started full on attacking Lebanon, and things have been getting more and more intense.
Israel, Palestine, Lebanon, Syria, Iraq... and Iran
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Read the 56 comments.
Mike of the Great White North:
It's sad that it's coming to this but I came to the conclusion that maybe, JUST MAYBE, it was going to take the brink of a full scale middle-east war where the US doesn't control the actors involved to get Americans to finally start having an open and honest discussion about US foriegn policy, and its interests in the region. I hoped that the piece written by John Mearsheimer and Stephen Walt would be the wakeup call Americans needed. I've spoken enough on this subject in various other topics. Ill yield the floor to others to discuss.
ps-watching US senators/congressman on Larry King live yesterday was pathetic. You can see how far they take it up the ass from a certain lobby.
Fri Jul 14 2006 10:57 AM
I find it extremely hypocritical for the US or Israel to demand compliance with UN resolutions while UN 242 remains unenforced.
The whole region seems doomed to an eternity of terror, murder and suffering.
Fri Jul 14 2006 10:07 PM
Right Wing Robby:
How about the 16 resolutions against Saddam pre-war. How did you feel about those?
Sun Jul 16 2006 9:29 AM
Tom from Madison:
how about some right to life rhetoric here? The need for Peace certainly trumps all other political and nationalistic concerns.
The need to enforce UN resolutions is not a justification to kill thousands of innocent people or to create the conditions which make it likely.
Sun Jul 16 2006 5:30 PM
Go Israel GO!!!!
Case in point: Approx I year ago, Palestine and other terrorist organizations in effect said “we attack you because you occupy our land” hence Israeli citizens were taken out of there homes kicking and screaming all to APEASE terrorists!!! Since that time terrorists have mounted attacks from Gaza and other lands given back by Israel Dialog is useless against these monsters, they pay lip service to those they “negotiate” with just to by time to re-arm, re-group plan more attacks!
The way to fight a war is to destroy your enemy to the point that they will no longer be a threat to you – there is no other way, go big or by killed!!!!
This also happened in our revolution “No taxation without representation” (The Boston Tea Party) just think if England HAD given in to our demands we’d be British citizens right now.
This also happened in Viet Nam were President Johnson stopped bombing campaigns to again “negotiate” while the Viet Cong took the opportunity to regain the ability to kill American soldiers!
This also happened in Gulf War 1 Saddam didn’t get out of Quate until a “multinational” military (90% being American) forced him out, again diplomacy meant nothing.
Certain people want the current administration to follow this same path were diplomacy & rhetoric are the be all and end all for foreign policy, even though time and again this sort of diplomacy has been proven useless.
Irregardless of the fact these monsters cant be trusted or believed you call for more… dialog and in the end the only purpose it serves is to strengthen the enemy.
Mon Jul 17 2006 7:25 AM
Right Wing Robby:
Mon Jul 17 2006 8:11 AM
Tom from Madison:
from the article YOU posted:
"Human rights groups believe about 300,000 people were killed during Saddam's 24-year rule, which ended when U.S.-led forces toppled his regime in 2003."
Saddam killed 300,000. He began prior to Ronald Reagan's presidency. Reagan sent special envoy Donald Rumsfeld to support Saddam's fight against Iran. This also supported his genocide efforts. It also precluded getting further trust from the Iraqis in the future. Bush 41 further killed Iraqi trust by allowing incredible slaughter after the Gulf War.
The war removing Saddam has already cost more than 100,000 Iraqi lives. Moreover, specific groups of Iraqis are much worse off than before -- especially non-fundamentalist Muslims, Christians, and women.
You should read:
Iraq has gone from bad to much worse with no end in sight. This is a blunder of collosal proportions.
Mon Jul 17 2006 10:54 AM
Mike of the Great White North:
RWR: like we need any more evidence that Saddam was a bad man. Might i point you to the more than 2 million dead from starvation in NK, or its public executions of people who say bad words about dear leader? When can we expect a 'Shock n Awe' campaign?
NJ: oh the fruit basket speaks again. "Go Israel GO!" <--what are you?? a fucking cheerleader? is this a sport to you? Truly shameless your warmongering mentality. I’m surprised you haven’t gone dual citizen with Israel and fight under the star of David. It seems readily apparent where your loyalties lie. Lets correct something shall we...
Apprx. 1 yr ago, that vile pig Sharon unilaterally 'disengaged' from Gaza. What did that mean? Was it appeasement? Hardly. What it was really was a ruse to show the world that they were leaving of their own accord (while granting themselves the right to maintain the majority of the West Bank), while maintaining control of their airspace, preventing them access and movement and running a fucking wall through their territory gobbling up more land. Your ability to claim UN resolutions for one war, yet turn a blind eye to the very first one that is most important (Res.242) is sheer lunacy.
Given the fact that:
a) Arab league nations voted overwhelmingly to recognize the state of Israel so long as it follows the UN land for peace initiatives
b) Hamas recognized the prisoner’s document, which provides recognition to the state of Israel so long as it abides by UN resolutions (right before Israel immolated a few families on a beach)
c) It is ILLEGAL to annex and appropriate/settle lands seized and occupied during war.
d) Occupying countries are LEGALLY responsible for the welfare of the civilians under their occupation, and that any violent actions brought against them by the occupying power is considered a WAR CRIME
e) Under the Geneva conventions, people have the right to resist occupation. What you call terror in you willful ignorance, I call a fight against oppression.
The Boston Tea Party was a fight for independence, freedom from the oppressive rule of one man. I again say how ironic... this is what you are trying to bring back into power. And isn't it great, every 4th of July you get to celebrate how you resisted and won your freedom. Too bad it’s an American exclusive. Any time anyone else tries to remove the shackles of their oppressors, their called terrorists. You’re a hypocrite, and still the biggest enabler of terrorism.
Mon Jul 17 2006 11:25 AM
Tom from Madison:
NJ's love for war speaks volumes about his ignorance. Bush's continued ineptness in the dipomacy department is yet another reason to replace him and his cronies. His combination of specious logic, poor grammar, and generally feeble thinking present powerful arguments for allocating money away from military spending and toward education. This is a child who was clearly left behind. Apparently this resonates with NJ and other anti-intellectual war mongers.
There is no honor in perpetuating the death of innocent civilians--anywhere. We need strong credible leaders to stand up for peace.
Mon Jul 17 2006 11:54 AM
Mike of the Great White North:
From the mouth of one who served.
Mon Jul 17 2006 3:18 PM
Mike of the Great White North:
NJ, i need you to contemplate this and answer honestly now ok.
"The way to fight a war is to destroy your enemy to the point that they will no longer be a threat to you – there is no other way, go big or by killed!!!!"
What exactly do you mean by go big. Because i'm guarenteeing you that if the root cause of the problem (UN res.242) is not addressed, you will not defeat this militarily unless you go BIG, as in genocide big. There is no amount of force you can use to crush the spirit of the Palestinians who have resisted for decades. There is no amount of force you can use to eradicate the notion that Israel and its big brother, the US are attempting to 'crusade' through the middle east.
So are you ready to 'Go Big' as you say? Cuz you're standing at the precipace of something really big right now. It will not be long now before more Americans are asked to die to help Israel be the regional hegemon of the middle east.
PS-I bet you Osama has a huge grin on his face right now. I bet he's recruiting at a fevered pace. And he doesn't have any 'Army of One' ads to spend on either! You do all the advertising for him.
Mon Jul 17 2006 3:36 PM
I made a mistake yesterday. I lost my bearing and let my emotions overwhelm me. I attacked Dave in a personal manner. This website above all is (for the most part) a POLITICAL forum and though I’m… passionate about what I believe I have to channel that passion.
I apologize to Dave for yesterdays comments no matter what I personally believe about him, this is not the venue. Again I humbly apologize to Dave.
Tue Jul 18 2006 7:15 AM
to Mike: Here are a few facts that I think you should consider (although I doubt that you would as you are such an enthusiastic supporter of the Arab world):
1. Israel went out of south of Lebanon six years ago! Hezbollah chose to break an INTERNATIONAL BORDER and capture and kill Israeli soldiers without any provocation from the Israeli side.
2. weather you like former Israeli PM. Sharon or not, he did remove all settlers out the Gaza strip, a move that was excepted and supported by most Israelis.
3. most Israelis support the removal of all settlers out of any occupied territories and so does this government. this will happen sooner or later with or without the cooperation of Palestinians...
- what I'm trying to say is that I as a person have a right to lead a normal life without having rockets falling on my head! and that right there is the reason of why Israel is fighting right now in Beirut. we have nothing against the Lebanese people.
we did not provoke this war, and I assure you that the Hezbollah did not attack because they give a damn about the Palestinian people (or the Lebanese for that matter) and you would be a naive to think that!. they are an extension of the Iranian and they are working with the cooperation of Syria for the sole cause of keeping an open front between Iran and Israel.
and on a more personal note - you seem to think you know much on what's happening here but your knowledge is lacking some basic truths and is based on popular anti-Israeli sayings and half truths. You have no conception of the reality of the middle east and of the Arab world... I'll bet you that you don't even know the meaning of the words Hezbollah or Hamas or even jihad, I'm sure you have never even talked to an Israeli or Arab person (have you ever been in the middle east or even out of America?)..
1. you enjoy so much embracing the religious Muslim world and its fanatics. One day
that snake will bite you when you list expect it.
2. the Israelis are a strong people too.
3. this war will be over when we say its over. there is a price to pay when you engage in a war with Israel.
3. i as an Israeli woman (who was in the army too) feel for the Lebanese people with all my heart (more then you do. you care about oil prices and not being sent to war - like that would ever happen)
i hope with all my heart that all this will end soon and that there wont be any more casualties on both sides.
Tue Jul 18 2006 7:58 AM
I am… skeptical about this but here goes: "To my Arab brothers: The War with Israel Is Over — and they won. Now let's finally move forward"
Tue Jul 18 2006 9:05 AM
Mike of the Great White North:
to Hadar E.
I enjoy people making assumptions out of my posts. Let me clear some up for you.
Firstly, i defy you to scour Jims entire blog to see if I've ever said Israel does not deserve to exist, or that Israel should be pushed into the sea. You wont find it. I've always supported an Israel that can leave peacefully beside its Arab brethren within the confines of the original border limits as spelled out in UN res.242. I have never come out cheering or condoning acts of terror caused by Hamas or Hezbolah like some other warmongering hack on this board. To me, death of civilians is the worst atrocity that can be commited.
But apparently because i deal out the vitriol against the government (read that again, not the people of but the government) of Israel, suddenly I am an Arab terrorist sympathizer. And because I am not limited to the severe one sided track of reporting from US news sources, i truly do get the BALANCED reporting most US citizens lack, i believe i can say my facts on the matter are a little more factual than you suggest.
My 'support' of the Arab world isn't for the corrupt apostate and dictatorial gov'ts held in power by US support. It's for its people to live freely the way the wish, and free from undue influence from the West as it tries to dictate to them how to live and whom to serve.
In answer to your points. (first set)
1. I am fully aware Israel left Lebanon 6 years ago. I am also fully aware that Israel still has prisoners who were captured on the Lebanese side of the border. What would normally have ended up being a routine prisoner swap has now become Ohlmerts showing his military brass he's got BIG balls and also a continuation of Netanyahu’s 'Clean Break' strategy. With the US having removed Saddam, there is no regional check to keep Israel from expanding outward by force. Hence the continued rhetoric for Syria, and Iran. The Israeli gov't would like nothing more than to involve the US into escalating this.
2. I do not like Sharon. He's a defacto war criminal. Like i stated previously, he abhorred the Olso accord and the 'road map', so he came up with 'disengagement' as a means to an end, letting go of desperate and dysfunctional Gaza, so he could keep the majority of resource rich and prosperous West Bank, all with the blessing of the US because they 'disengaged'. What garbage. It amounted to Illegal annexation and you know it.
3. You are correct. Most Israeli's do support removal of all settlers from all occupied territories, except for the settlers themselves, who see it as God's will that they were granted that land. And that frightful minority controls a frightful majority of the gov't of Israel. (somewhat lessened by Lukids collapse but its still there)
Thanks to CNN, i knew Hezbollah means 'party of god'. Do i really need to know what a name stands for or should i really know why people do what they do.
Second set of points.
1.If you are trying to turn this into a clash of civilizations, or pulling an 'us or them' argument by saying embracing muslims will bite me in the ass, you're daring me to choose. I don’t want to choose, i want both of you to live in peace and harmony with each other. But denying reality won’t make it happen. Sticking your head in the sand wont make it happen. And continuing to use heavy military force won’t make it happen.
2. The Israeli's are a very strong people. There is much to be proud of and you have endured alot, there is no denying. From the holocaust to living everyday in the shadow of terror you’ve endured. This notwithstanding, I have similar empathy for a people who have no homeland, who have suffered under occupation for decades, and who see no hope for a future state because the GOV'T of Israel has put too many obstacles on the ground for any viable state to happen. Once again i distinguish from the gov't and the people. In fact polls of both people (Pals and Israelis) view their gov'ts as corrupt and working against peace initiatives.
3. Then this war will go on forever. You may have resolve. You may have the firepower. But i would think the lesson would have been learned over the last decades. It is a lesson that has been taught time and again. Empires die, insurgencies don’t.
3b) Your second comment somewhat threw me for a loop. Your agitation with me is understandable, though your tone is unwarranted, nor appreciated. Or am i to assume simply because you're a woman or a mother that you feel for the Lebanese. I think i have as much right to 'feel' considering a few Canadian nationals happened to feel this 'measured' response up close and personal. And of course you were in the army, it's obligatory for all Israeli's to serve. Does that make you more 'moral' than I? Hardly. And oil prices drive US foreign policy my dear, not my emotions.
You say my facts are in error. Please point them out to me. You did not dispute one single reference of mine regarding Arab states agreeing to Israelis right to exist, nor did you refute Hamas agreeing to the prisoners document calling on recognition of Israel, or any of Israel's actions against the US? You say i cannot comment because I've never been to the middle east? So i cant philosophize about life after death because i haven't experienced my own death yet? I cant say a car without seatbelts isn't safe because im not an engineer? Great reasoning. I've talked to too few Israeli's and a few more Arabs. Both have their misconceptions, ingrown hatreds and a desire for peace. Their gov'ts won't give it to them.
I will end it by saying yes... you do have the right to lead a normal life without rockets falling on your head. Please extend this courtesy to the people who have no normal life, must cross dozens of checkpoints, be humiliated by occupying forces, have their economy/infrastructure destroyed, and are being collectively punished with a lack of water/power/basic necessities of life for the actions of a few, and happen to be immolated for enjoying a day at the beach.
Tue Jul 18 2006 11:29 AM
"Again I humbly apologize to Dave."
It's all good in the hood.
Being a crew chief gave me a pretty thick skin.
Tue Jul 18 2006 2:33 PM
isreals is basically ganging up on the muslims they see a chance to attack the muslims after 9 11 so they find bullshit reason like we held 2 of thier soliders when the isreals caputered and killed muslims by the thousands and everything now a days gotta be terrosite acts this is none sense people need to understand that this world if made for diff races and skin colors why cant we all live like humans in peace they world becomin curropted their no love anymore
Tue Jul 18 2006 11:26 PM
Mike of the Great White North:
by Michael Scheuer, author "Imperial Hubris: Why the West is Losing the War on Terror"
At least this way, when the next 9-11 happens, I can say I told you so.
Fri Jul 21 2006 12:25 PM
Mike of the Great White North:
BEFORE FOX BECAME FAUX...
Mon Jul 24 2006 5:30 PM
Mike of the Great White North:
Bush's prediction of being 'a uniter, not a divider' are starting to come to fruition.
He's starting to coalesce every fragmented, fracturous and fueding sunni's, shite's, arabs, muslims, and fighters of all differing goals, agendas and ideologies in a struggle against US/Israeli aggression.
Fri Jul 28 2006 2:04 PM
It appears to me that Iran and Syria are using Hezbollah to wage a proxy war against Israel. If this is true, then I think that Israel has the right to strike at either of those countries. Whether such an attack is advisable or not is a different question.
Also, I don't think anyone can question Israel's right to attack Hezbollah. I think the concern which some people have stated is that they believe that Israel's response is heavy-handed and falls disproportionately on innocent people.
I'm not sure that any other nation, put in the same situation of having to defend itself from a terrorist organization on its border, would act any differently. Particularly, when said terrorists launch rocket attacks from ostensibly civilian areas. For example, if a school is used for military purposes (for storage, as a staging area, etc.), it becomes a legitimate military target in a war.
Also, Hezbollah is committed to the destruction of Israel. That position is not negotiable for them.
Israel could have overlooked the kidnapping of the two soldiers, but I think it was a wake-up call to the country that once again it is time for them to confront the problem of Hezbollah.
I vehemently opposed the Iraq war, but I would not have opposed it if Iraq had constituted a true threat to the U.S. In Israel's case, Hezbollah constitutes a true threat to Israel's security.
Sun Jul 30 2006 4:44 AM
Funny how when different Islamo-fanatics decide to mix it up - some-one always says "Lets attack Israel" and everyone falls back in line.
Israel the little Satan the U. S the big Satan, FINALLY someone with the balls to say “ENOUGH IS ENOUGH” time to put these sub-human monsters where they belong!
I can say this because I have no constituency to pander to.
I think we have to WRITE-OFF the current generation of these Islamo-fascists, they can’t be reasoned with, they consider us infidels and as such, we are beneath them, and this faction will not stop until Israel has been driven into the sea and America is in ashes.
We have to start making inroads with the youngest of Islam (3, 4, 5, 6 yr olds) in order to have lasting peace all over the world. How do you reason with a man who ends up killing his very own people (those he’s trying to “liberate” from the Zionist yoke)… and instead of realizing his mistake send more to be killed and calls them… MYRTERS instead of the world condemning him, Israel must show “restraint.”
We are currently in a culture war with these Islamo-Monsters and they do not want to live in peace.
Case in point: Israel did what the world and these terror groups wanted (gave back land) and what did it get them?
ANSWER the same rockets flying over head, the same Islamo-Monsters sending their children with bomb vests into population centers to kill as many people as possible! And the world says Israel should show “restraint”, Israel should have a “cease-fire”, how is a cease-fire binding on terrorists? How can it be enforced? Who will enforce it? How would U. N sanctions/resolutions work on an entity with no borders, no uniformed military and no (recognized) government? How can you have “dialog,” how can you “negotiate” with someone to whom human life means nothing just a means to his goal because he has a … different interpretation of his holy book?!?!?!?
How many times will you give the bully your lunch money and are hit anyway before you make a stand and say no more?!?! This is the result of appeasement this is the result of dialog, this is the result of those in power manipulating things to make themselves feel good, so they could say to themselves “I made a difference”
I’m starting to generalize ALL those who practice Islam into the “terrorist” bin – WHY?!?!? Because I have yet to see a MEANINGFUL EFFORT from those who practice this religion to denounce/separate themselves/ take an active role in the discovery of these terrorists/destroy those who dip the Quran in blood (because God wants it). Those countries that “recognize” Israel tell me one that in no uncertain terms/actions have exerted their influence in this current conflict to end it.
Sun Jul 30 2006 9:32 PM
I agree with you on Israel but not on Iraq.
Sun Jul 30 2006 10:10 PM
Mike of the Great White North:
"We have to start making inroads with the youngest of Islam (3, 4, 5, 6 yr olds) in order to have lasting peace all over the world"
Yeah, best way to making inroads with the youngest in Islam is apparently just to kill them.
Keep it up NJ. Your wearing a pretty good set of blinders right now. The whole world is against you (the US) on your Greenlighting Israel to continue its shelling of Lebanon. And your actions are bringing to light the truth of everything Bin Laden preaches, that its you and Israel against the whole muslim world.
Turn on the TV, what do you see?
Bye bye little hearts n minds...
Mon Jul 31 2006 12:22 AM
When you can proove to me that war has become so exact with 0% errors then talk.
Mon Jul 31 2006 7:23 AM
Mike of the Great White North:
I'll talk whenever i feel like talking friend.
As i made clear in pretty much my very first post ever to you, i said perceptions are the key. Not your perception, but their perception. You can talk a big game about freedom, democracy, liberation... but in the end game, this is not what the see, feel or hear from you. They see dead children, from US made bombs, fired by Israeli agressors, givin a greenlight by the US, against the call of the entire world. Don't buy my reasoning? Like i said, its all about perception.
Lebenese civilians are dying at 30 to 1 rate to Israelis. 1/3rd are children. No amount of propoganda will change that fact. The US had a chance to be an honest broker. It failed. The US had the power to call for a halt from Israel and bring about a ceasefire and negotiations. It failed. The US has the ability to end the middleeast strife permanently if it played both sides fairly. It failed.
So when the TV is full of Muslims chanting death to America, death to Israel... why is there any surprise from the war party?
Mon Jul 31 2006 11:07 AM
What about the fact that Hezbollah is purposefully using civilians as human shields and PURPOSEFULLY parading dead children to anyone with a camera, tell me have the Israelis stooped to this new low to propagandize this issue with the bodies of dead children?
I hope Israel wipes them from existence.
Mon Jul 31 2006 1:38 PM
Mike of the Great White North:
part of what ive been saying for years now...
"As I recently learned doing radio shows across the US, most Americans cannot distinguish between Hezbullah, al-Qaida, Taliban, the PLO, Hamas, etc All are terrorists. Listeners in rural areas of core Bush support even called in to ask me if the fighting in Lebanon was the prelude to Armageddon and the destruction of the earth. I assured them the world was not about to end, but I am not sure they were relieved by my cheery news or disappointed. Many of these fundamentalist primitives can’t wait to see those not born again be roasted, flayed alive, torn to pieces and otherwise tormented in Armageddon’s hellfires."
One of 3 main columnists I constantly read for historically accurate understanding of current events without the neocon hysteria and out and out lies. If you dare to read his archive columns, you'll see everything, and i mean EVERYTHING he predicted (and the archives go long before the Iraq war) has come to fruition.
So when he closes his column with
"But the big winner in this unfolding catastrophe is Osma bin Laden."
Mon Jul 31 2006 5:18 PM
Mike of the Great White North:
Tell me again NJ, that Hezbollah started this.
"It all started on July 12 when Israel troops were ambushed on Lebanon's side of the border with Israel."
Or maybe you'll tell me some more fantasy stories of how Israel was so nice after it left Lebanon?
Maybe you have a bridge you'd like to sell me too?
Id like to see how you'd react to a couple of Canadian CF-18's 'booming' your residential area. Breaches of airspace are violations of international law and could be construed as acts of war no?
Again, whats good for the goose....
Tue Aug 1 2006 12:15 AM
About the propaganda article
“The Christians of Lebanon, along with a majority of the Sunni Muslims, want a war-free Westernized country that thrives on tourism and sound economic policies.” Then they should turn in those monsters lobbing rockets across the border!!! If the Lebanese government is unwilling or unable to do this then Israel has a right to do so!
What’s that U.N. resolution that no one cares about because it benefits Israel – 1549?
If a bunch of Canucks decided to lob rockets/bombs over on American border towns, the president would issue an ultimatum to the Prime Minister, and if he was unwilling/unable to do anything about it the President is obligated to!
So you just keep on defending those monsters!
Death to terrorists.
Tue Aug 1 2006 7:04 AM
Mike of the Great White North:
And you just keep rooting for the status quo you warpiglette.
"Then they should turn in those monsters lobbing rockets across the border!!! If the Lebanese government is unwilling or unable to do this then Israel has a right to do so"
-Oh really? Maybe you've forgotten that Hezbollah provides most of the social services, education and aid for these people. Perhaps you also forget that they successfully removed Israel (the only force to do so) so they are heroes to a good majority of these people. And to the others who did not share Hezbollah’s ideology, Israel has helped convert them with their heavy-handed war criminal tactics. It would be like asking you to turn in your dear leader and his flunkies to the Hague for war crime charges. Like i said before, it's all about perception. No matter how much the rest of the world thinks Bush is a turd, you'll still praise him. And Israel’s right to go after Hezbollah, sure by all means. But where a small spec. ops force of troops could have been sent in, we see shelling and aerial bombing that is criminal, collectively punishing the civil population. Imagine if the US used this logic on its own problem. Why send in the cops to arrest a drug dealer, or why send in SWAT after a cop killer? Just level the neighborhood with some precise munitions and your good to go right?
"What’s that U.N. resolution that no one cares about because it benefits Israel – 1549?"
-I’m assuming that’s a typo.. you meant 242 right? Oh that’s right, we only quote UN resolutions when its convenient, but we pretend the most important one doesn't exist. Remember when you said the UN was irrelevant? All of a sudden you care about 1549… The reason the UN is irrelevant is because the U.S. has made it so, with it’s constant vetoing of resolutions against Israel, giving Israel the same protective bubble to live in like Bush lives in.
"If a bunch of Canucks decided to lob rockets/bombs over..."
-You're not answering my question regarding overflights and sovereign airspace. And to keep the story accurate, Canucks would be lobbing rockets ONLY after US troops crossed into Canadian territory in violation of international law, had been caught, refused to negotiate for its soldiers as per the norm and begun opening up massive artillery fire into Canada. This myth that Hezbollah began to lob rockets out of the blue for no other reason sure gets great play in the US media, I’m not surprised a non-thinking entity like you takes it like you do. Then again, you’re not part of the Factinista, you just go with your gut.
Just like the US was looking for any reason to invade Iraq months before 9-11, Israel's been pining for any reason to avenge its humiliation in 2000.
Quick question… are all terrorists=terrorists? What constitutes a terrorist? Should the aims of terrorists ever be allowed to be achieved? What if they were already achieved? Should those results be fought against retroactively, to make sure no act of terrorism is ever rewarded?
Tue Aug 1 2006 11:14 AM
Mike, maybe you’ll understand it this way:
A militia in America decides that Canada has no right to exist so they declare war and start to attack (kidnapping any RCMP they can find, lobbing rockets over the border, bombing hockey rinks during games) the American government states that it is unable to stop these terrorists from doing this – so Canada decides to invade to stop the unwarranted – unprovoked attacks perpetrated by this group (over the objections of the American government).
Now again the U. N. will save Hezbollah from being ground into dust by Israel and give them the opportunity to: rearm, regroup all under a sympathetic government (Lebanon) while being financed by a rouge nation (Iran). “An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last” – Winston Churchill. (OH YEAH MIKE it was U. N. resolution 1559) Peace is simply not the absence of conflict it’s the absence of enemies, as proven by Neville Chamberlain when he signed a non-aggression pact with Hitler. Hitler HAD to be defeated and if he wasn’t we’d all be speaking German!
Make no mistake there’s been a great victory for terrorists around the world again because right and wrong take a back seat to politics. What will it take for the Neville Chamberlains of the world to be stopped, more importantly when will the next Churchill to carry this fight the way it should be.
“But where a small spec. ops force of troops could have been sent in, we see shelling and aerial bombing that is criminal, collectively punishing the civil population.” – you have it all wrong, these people build ARSENALS/STOCKPILES of weapons in holes in the ground and then build: houses/schools/hospitals over them and dare Israel to strike and you continue to defend them while they kill their own or cause their own to be killed all for the media feeding frenzy. “Democratic nations must try to find ways to starve the terrorist and the hijacker of the oxygen of publicity on which they depend.” - Margaret Thatcher
“Why send in the cops to arrest a drug dealer” – you’re right, level the house - who needs ‘em (by the way I also think helicopter gun ships should be deployed if police are unable to stop a car they are chasing)
“Should the aims of terrorists ever be allowed to be achieved?” – No not when they revert to these types of actions.
Yes Mike All terrorists are evil, indiscriminant killing for killing sake is evil proven by: Hitler, Stalin, Saddam, Castro and countless others thru history (I smell a set-up but OK I’ll bite)
How can you defend these monsters? How many were arrested in Canada 7, 12 for plotting to blow something up? We arrested 7 in Florida for the same thing and now in Britain 10 or 20 more and people like you want to give them rights when they confer none on you!
Those on the left continue to do all they can to undermine the war effort and then when the next SUCCESSFULL attack happens you’ll blame Bush for not doing enough.
Thanks and WELL DONE to those who foiled the plan of blowing up U. S. bound planes!!! And a VERY SPECIAL thanks go those responsible for NOT letting the NY Times warn the terrorists and give away military secrets. America together with Britain and Pakistan using phone intercepts (wiretaps) and other tools at their disposal have won another battle in this war.
NY TIMES PLEASE READ: “Democratic nations must try to find ways to starve the terrorist and the hijacker of the oxygen of publicity on which they depend.” - Margaret Thatcher
Tue Aug 15 2006 11:12 PM
Mike of the Great White North:
I do not agree.
"A militia in America decides that Canada has no right to exist so they declare war and start to attack..."
for your story to have accuracy there would have to be recognition that a.)Canada invaded and occupied a part of the US for over a decade and b.) after withdrawing, Canada continued to claim NY was on its side of the border, routinely broke US sovereign airspace with sonic boom overflights over MI residential neighborhoods. We must remember, Hezbollah did not exist prior to the occupation and was created as armed resistance to Lebanon’s occupation.
""An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last” – Winston Churchill"
-you're WW2 quotes bear no relation to the current conflict. You also follow your president’s inability to separate regional and global conflicts to staggering levels. Trying to conflate Hezbollah with Nazi Germany is quite ridiculous. And again I bring up resolution 242, not that you care.
"you have it all wrong, these people build ARSENALS/STOCKPILES of weapons in holes in the ground and then build: houses/schools/hospitals over them and dare Israel to strike and you continue to defend them while they kill their own or cause their own to be killed all for the media feeding frenzy"
-Let me refer you here for beginners.
Follow that with the following facts.
1. Israeli officials have already confirmed they targeted certain area's where there were NO Hezbollah rockets. What pray tell did they aim at then?
2. When the Israeli's free fire on southern Lebanon was accentuated with the quote from a Israeli army commander claiming everyone still left inside south Lebanon is a defacto terrorist.
3. That Israel's smart bombs and restraint while Hezbollah’s targetting of civilians produced a 15-1 civilian death ratio, and over half of the 130+ casualties Israel reported are soldiers.
The idea that Hezbollah drove dead bodies to crater sites for a media frenzy is laughable. To call them cowardly for 'blending in' to the population is also laughable. Same could be said of Israeli soldiers. See above article for Israel cowardly building its military facilities near civilian areas and it's censorship laws regarding reporting Katusha targets.
"you’re right, level the house - who needs ‘em"
-So you're not for the rule of law or due process then. And you don't care if the leveling of the drug dealer’s house with a 2000 lb bunker buster kills the 2 families in the adjacent houses either? Well of course not, they must be in cahoots with the drug dealers right? It's all good in the 'War on Drugs' right?
“Should the aims of terrorists ever be allowed to be achieved?” – No not when they revert to these types of actions." - (I smell a set-up but OK I’ll bite)
- Your sense of smell works well. Consider your words and apply them to the following.
1. Irgun Tsvai Leumi. This group bombed the King David Hotel, 91 people died. The Brits called them terrorists. This group advocated use of force to establish the state of Israel. Too bad they succeeded, they've emboldened the enemy.
2. The American Revolutionaries. Branded as terrorists by the British. Unable to match the full onslaught of the British army gun for gun, they changed tactics to even the playing field, using brush and obstacles for cover, using ambushes on troop conveys to inflict heavy losses. These were considered 'cowardly', 'dishonorable', 'terrorist' to the Brits, who would courageously fight on the open field, line formations according the gentlemanly code of conduct during warfare.
3.Mujahedin-e Khalq Organization (MEK) currently on the US list of Terror organizations yet continues to receive covert aid from the US and 'allies' to operate against the Iranian regime.
This is just a partial of the double standards game you play with your choosiness of what constitutes terrorist vs. other. Your insistence on a black/white world with the inability to see the gray between leaves you with little choice but to constantly do the wrong thing. If we are to follow your philosophy that no act of terrorism be rewarded, that military might, not negotiation(appeasement) is the only way to 'deal' with terrorists, then the only answers are to give Israel back to Palestine, have the US absorbed into the Union Jack and aid the Iranians into putting down the MEK. No?
"How can you defend these monsters?"
-it's not about defending the monsters or their actions. it's about seeing the shades of gray. Their methods are monstrous yes.. but the ideals behind them are not. What i will defend is the undeniable right of the Palestinians self-determination and resistance to occupation. While i will not condone Hezbollah’s action to take Israeli soldiers hostage, what was a minor border skirmish that ALWAYS was dealt with politically, became overblown because Olmhert had a hissy fit when Nasrallah called him 'small' compared to Sharon and OVERREACTED with a full scale war that achieved Israel NOTHING. And i fully defend Hezbollah’s position to repel Israeli troops from Lebanon as they are the only force capable of defending Lebanon from occupation as was demonstrated in the past. I CHOOSE to understand the reasoning behind why they do what they do, and while the ends may do not always justify the means, it is always more complex than just good vs. evil. And i believe this problem has a political solution, not a military one.
"when the next SUCCESSFULL attack happens you’ll blame Bush for not doing enough."
-yes, they will, but not for doing nothing. they will blame him for helping foster more hatred and animosity of America and its policies. you simply have to wake up to the truth NJ.
And since you love quotes so much.. i leave you with this.
"Patriotism is the virtue of the vicious"-Oscar Wilde
Wed Aug 16 2006 2:40 PM
Mike of the Great White North:
One other note:
NJ-"America together with Britain and Pakistan using phone intercepts (wiretaps) and other tools at their disposal have won another battle in this war."
Excerpt from Charles V. Peña column
"Almost immediately, President Bush used the opportunity to use the incident as a rationale for "why we have given our officials the tools they need to protect our people." Although he didn't specify which tools, it's worth noting that neither the PATRIOT Act nor the NSA's warrantless surveillance program were instrumental in uncovering the plot. Instead, it appears that it was the work of good old-fashioned police work and a bit of luck: it all began when British authorities received a phone call from a member of the Muslim community who was worried about the suspicious behavior of an acquaintance. This tip led to a yearlong investigation involving hundreds of investigators on three continents, which underscores that the war on terrorism – the un-war – will not be fought primarily with military force of arms, but through cooperative intelligence-sharing and law enforcement."
Note there is no mention of ILLEGAL wiretaps, nor does it mention military assaults in the 'other tools' department.
Wed Aug 16 2006 6:57 PM
"knowledgeable American official says U.S. intelligence provided London authorities with intercepts of the group's communications."
Thu Aug 17 2006 4:15 PM
I heard tape recordings of two victims of the towers who were incinerated/crushed into dust that day. One of a (20 something) woman on her cell phone repeating “I’m going to die” and the 911 operator attempting to console her/calm her, then her screams as the tower comes down. The second of a (30 something) man on his cell phone (but a much shorter recording) I can barely understand what he says before I hear his screams… then nothing.
What horror, how gruesome, how much worse must it have been to be a policeman/fireman/EMT-paramedic going into that war zone – going into the towers? How much worse must it have been to have been on one of those planes waiting to go on: vacation, a business trip, home and all of a sudden facing down a monster!
What PATRIOTISM, what COURAGE, how HEROIC were those FIRST WARRIORS on that plane that crashed in Pennsylvania and did to the terrorists what we: fail to do, what peer pressure stops us from doing, what other people want to stop us from doing because of politics, because of hatred, because their guy isn’t “IT”, because “what will the world think of us.”
Did Hitler worry about not being invited to the “right parties” when he started WW2?
Did Ayatollah Khomeini have a focus group formed to find out if it would be “good” to take those hostages?
Did Milosevic care about “his image”?
Did Saddam care what the world thought about him and what he was going to do in 1990/91? More importantly did it stop him?
Does Castro care now about how many people he disappears into his own personal gulags all over Cuba?
Do terrorist care about their collective image when they’re sawing the head off some one?
Time and again your side says “Our reputation in the world is destroyed” or something along those lines, where were you when all these other atrocities are/were happening? Where’s Amnesty International, where’s the American Criminal Liberties Union, where’s Greenpeace?
And yet you say America is wrong, I say the FUCK with what the world thinks - do what has/needs to be done and heal bruised egos after.
“Trying to conflate Hezbollah with Nazi Germany is quite ridiculous” – “there was a well-documented, thriving relationship between the Arab/Muslim world and Nazi Germany, with perhaps the most significant figure linking Hitler to the Middle East being Grand Mufti of Jerusalem Haj Amin el-Husseini. This is just a tease- http://www.cdn-friends-icej.ca/medigest/may00/arabnazi.html -be careful the site is based in Canada
Irgun Tsvai Leumi is a terrorist group. I don’t pick and choose. And true to form they got their way didn’t they. Just like just about every other criminal/terrorist organization out there.
“The American Revolutionaries. Branded as terrorists by the British.” Oh yes those civilian cases of tea did not need to be destroyed, needless collateral damage.
OK, let me ask you a few things:
Did the American terrorists indiscriminately murder British civilians or did they concentrate their efforts on the “red coats”?
Did the American terrorists blow up inns, stables owned by “commoners”, what about farm houses?
Please show me where I could find records of atrocities conducted by these same American terrorists?
“it's about seeing the shades of gray” and now you’re going to tell me criminals aren’t responsible for their acts because: they came from broken homes, they were abused as children… blah blah blah
shades of gray – so I guess the 3000 victims of 911 are only a little dead. My wife was only partly pregnant 3 times.
I hope you see I believe in absolutes, apparently you don’t.
“1. Israeli officials have already confirmed they targeted certain area's where there were NO Hezbollah rockets. What pray tell did they aim at then?
2. When the Israeli's free fire on southern Lebanon was accentuated with the quote from a Israeli army commander claiming everyone still left inside south Lebanon is a defacto terrorist.”
-Please explain to me how the Israelis can attack the enemy without attacking them? If they’re in Lebanon then attack Lebanon. If they’re Jordan, attack Jordan. If they’re in Northern Israel they should attack Northern Israel. If they’re in my house then attack MY HOUSE!
-1998/9 Bill Clinton orders a two month “war” in Serbia where we bombed from 40,000 feet up (no ground troops) and killed approx 1500 civilians - "The pattern of attacks shows the American military's disturbing disregard for the lives of Serbian civilians.” SOUND FAMILIER???? It should it’s from your antiwar site (with a little creative license).
Why no calls for justice? Why no calling Clinton a war criminal? Why only Bush?
Cease fire?!?!? I’ll write it again PEACE ISNT THE ABSENCE OF CONFLICT, IT’S THE ABSENCE OF ENEMIES.
Did we sign a cease fire with the British? Did we sign one with the Germans or the Japanese? Did we sign one with the USSR and that’s why we never fired a shot?
We DID sign one with Saddam and look what happened.
Who do we sign a cease fire with so no more planes blow up? Who do we sign a cease fire with to stop the murder of Iraqi citizens and the attacks on our soldiers? Who did the Indians sign a cease fire with to stop the bombing of train cars? Who do the Spaniards sign a cease fire with? What about Australia and the Philippians?
What happened to the: Bush, Reagan and FDR doctrines?
Lebanon (government) has a parasite, and Lebanon (government) refuses to do anything about it so it is even worth saving?
Cease fire gives the U.N a reason to exist. Cease fire does not = peace and the UN isn’t needed for peace to be achieved the UN is more a hindrance. U.N. cease-fires are the ultimate in feel-good decisions made by people who pay no price for the repercussions.
Jews lived in Palestine long before there was a state of Israel and even before there was an Ottoman Empire.
For the record I wouldn’t waste a 2000lb bomb on a drug dealer, a tank shell is a better use of resources.
I am fond of quotes (especially from the founders) "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." We are not to expect to be translated from despotism to liberty in a featherbed. – Thomas Jefferson
Fri Aug 18 2006 7:08 AM
NEWS FLASH!!! Iraq didn't do 911 to us!
Sat Aug 19 2006 5:03 PM
If Bush and the neocons were even only a tiny bit serious about national security they would have secured the nation's borders and ports - how do you square their refusal to do so with the fairy tail that only the republicans can make us safe.
It is disgusting beyond comprehension that to Bush and the neocons 911 is just a political tool.
Sat Aug 19 2006 6:21 PM
Read "the Connection" you can get it at Amazon.com
I agree with you on the borders issue, it's a MAJOR hang-up I have with this administration.
The borders should be “militarized” N-Guard units, regular Army & Marines should all be patrolling the borders, Bush only paid lip service by sending 6K troops to help the Border Patrol. The same type of fence being built in Israel should be built on both borders with Canada and Mexico. Our coastlines should be patrolled by the navy (supplementing the Coast Guard) and also by planes from all three branches of the military: Air Force, Navy, Coast Guard.
Don’t tell me we don’t have enough people to do it WE DO. Don’t tell me we’re stretched too thin because of Iraq and Afghanistan – it’s not true.
Sun Aug 20 2006 7:59 AM
There is no media bias
Exposing the media. Needs sound.
Tue Aug 22 2006 8:40 AM
Mike of the Great White North:
As an avid photoshop artist i can tell bad photos when i see them. Thats the worst ive seen in a while.
Granted, that guy who did it was:
a) not good at photoshop and
BUT PLEASE... lets not lose sight of something here. You are once again performing the tried and true function of a right wing turd. The fact that a single photo was doctored (and rightly brought to our attention) does not invalidate the thousands of other photos that hae come out of that region showing utter devastation.
This is the same BS your camp pulled with Dan Rather. You destroyed the messanger with the intent of destroying the message, that Bush was an AWOL sack of shit chickenhawk. There's more than enough evidence to come to that conclusion that one botched TV investigation won't throw me off the track.
If you want to 'sound' off on exposing the media, read Lapdogs
Ill gladly throw up some examples if your not interested in buying the book.
Tue Aug 22 2006 11:38 AM
It’s not the fact that the guy sucks at photoshop. It not the fact that he might be an idiot. IT’s THE FACT THAT HE GOT COUGHT!!! How many more are there out there 100 times better then this guy working for various terror groups?
AND it just wasn’t a “single photo”, you actually believe this was the exception rather then the rule? Considering the enemy we’re facing? Considering what they want to do to us?
Dan Rather FUCKED UP plain and simple, how long has he been a reporter again? 40-50 years? You’d think that by now he’d know the difference between fake and real and you expect me to believe that he didn’t know the difference. He just let his personal beliefs take over (again GET BUSH AT ANY AND ALL COSTS).
Tue Aug 22 2006 4:23 PM
Look all over the news, it LEBENON LEBENON LEBENON 24/7, if people didn’t know better it would seem that Israel was never touched, that not one rocket landed on Israeli soil, oh but my God LEBENON what did they expect, Hezbollah would continue to torment Israel and Israel would just take it up the A$$ with a hot poker?
“Lap Dog” you want to talk about a lap dog just this week cnn.com called an ILLEGAL ALIEN hold up in a church an “ACTIVIST”
Tue Aug 22 2006 4:31 PM
Mike of the Great White North:
Typical frothing at the mouth loon.
Nj, if you think thats the rule rather than the exception.. your retarded. You're telling me i've been decieved by the wonderful exploits of photo and video editing? That all those wonderful artillary pieces and israeli warplanes just happened to drop rose petals and candy? All those stats of bomb tonnage dropped, live video of urban areas exploding was all rigged? All the quotes from Israeli officers calling South Lebanon a 'free fire' zone was spin? You mean the Israeli's were 'apologizing' for the dead civillians in Qana even though it was Hezbollah propoganda? Why apologize then? Geeez your hardwired to accept the ridiculous.
And lets backtrack for one f)(*&ing second. Your gonna sit there and tell me that Bush hasn't had it easy? Your going to sit there and tell me that FOX's 'agenda' wasn't GET CLINTON AT ALL COSTS? Your memory span is razor thin.
And yeah, Dan Rather fucked up. Guess what, he did pay the price didn't he. Geee it would be real nice if all people who FUCKED UP royally took a page out of Rathers book dontcha think? Rather admitted he was wrong and stepped down. WHO ELSE HAS FUCKED UP ROYALLY ON A SCALE 1 BILLION TIMES WORSE THAN THAT. geee, i dunno, lemme think....
Tenet (he got a nice shiney award from w)
where's your rightious indignation over these fucking screwups who have cost the lives of 100's of thousands of people because they didn't bother TO CHECK THE FUCKING FACTS! What a fucking joke, your morality is severly lacking.
Oooh Lebanon, Lebanon, Lebanon. You and me must watch really different version of the news.. cuz all i see is CNN, MSNBC, ABC and all the rest of these hacks trying to
a) equalize the loss, as if both Israel and Lebanon suffered equally. GROSSY DISPORPORTIONATE.
b) saying everything Israel did was to ensure its survival (complete misnomer, Hezbollah could have fired every rocket it had, no chance for Israel to be destroyed) so thats bullshit too
c) saying Israel avoided civilians while Hezbollah targetted. If you so choose to argue this one, i will devote an entire post to this. The casualty ratio of civilians/soldiers on both sides and the 'precision' munitions of Israel compares to the unguided Katyushas DICTATE that Israel purposefully, for acts of TERROR and COLLECTIVE PUNISHMENT engaged in areas of known high civillian traffic.
All I see on CNN is a bunch of lying, spinning, obfuscating Israeli officials droneing on about the same talking points they always do, just like the rightwingnut echo chamber. One and the same shit really.
Yes, im sure Lou Dobbs had something to say about the activist too.
And oh yeah, the terrorists have already won. Why? Go ahead and ask me.
Tue Aug 22 2006 5:27 PM
You're a terrorist apologist and you good and God damn well know it!
Poor Hezbollah they were just farmers and are clean and pure as the wind driven snow!
And what About YOUR spin!?!?!? Israel is the be all and end all of evil, perpetuating the Big Satan little Satan bullshit. Israel had nothing else better to do and the PM woke up that day and on a whim decided to attack Lebanon using Hezbollah as a scapegoat
NO - BUSH HAS NOT HAD IT EASY for his entire term, at every turn Bush has been undermined, called a liar and criminal when he’s the farthest thing from it and for no other reason then HATE! And you expect me to believe he’s had a cake walk.
“GET CLINTON AT ALL COSTS” do you realize Clinton was accused of rape and nobody gave a shit, how many women came out accusing him of other things along those lines and his wife called it a “Right Wing Conspiracy”
Dan Rather did what he did on purpose, he know those papers were fake and tried to put one over on us, but it didn’t work.
You’re better off telling me the (legal) wiretaps didn’t help the Brits stop another attack. Or telling me the Isalmo Nazis don’t exist.
And now that I’m back on topic I have more questions for you (or any one who can answer).
How do you negotiate with some one that wishes you dead?
What kind of dialog can you have with someone bent on your destruction?
How do you appease murderers who want to continue to murder, do you actually think if we do/did everything they wanted they’d leave us alone? If you say yes, you’re no longer worth communicating with.
Consider this Mr. Diplomacy, for all the time you and I have been going back and forth on this site – have I ever convinced you? Or you me?
Terrorists must be put down like the animals they are and the faster you and those like you realize that the better off everyone will be.
Wed Aug 23 2006 4:24 PM
Mike of the Great White North:
Terrorist apologist. Go fuck yourself. Time and again you have shown you are EXACTLY what Bin Laden is looking for in an ally. Bin Laden loves Bush and even helped him in his reelection over Kerry. Ask the CIA, they know this as fact. And he counts on idiots like you to keep doing and saying what you do and say to perpetuate this fracas to its final stupidity-a nuclear war instigated by the US. Boy will those fucking rapturists be so pleased with themselves!
Yep, i wont deny, i am tired of that tiny little country making a mess of the whole world. Sure the people are nice, and are having more of a debate in Israel than anyone in the U.S. of A thanks to the AIPAC Lobby. But the government is not its people (as witnessed in the US) No, the PM didn't wake up one day and decide to go to war against Lebanon. IT WAS ON THE BOOKS FOR OVER A YEAR. Part and parcel with tacit US approval and green lit. When the blowback comes, i wont shed a fucking tear because this time there is no excuse or feigning ignorance. You'll have earned it.
You're a horse with blinders on. That simple. You shed all doubt (and reason, sanity, intelligence) because this man is your one silly hope to institute some 'values' pertaining to these backwards thinking, de-evolving evangelicals on stupid matters like abortion and gay marriage. Its what the fanatical right wing is all about. Your FAUX war on terror is simply that. A lie. You're no safer than when you started, hell you’re in more danger now (it is to laugh). True to Bin Laden’s words, you will never feel safe, secure until the Middle East is free from your hegemonic grip. You will continue to cringe, and jump and be frightened like the little child you are at bottles of Gatorade(tm), chewing gum, running shoes, code orange, etc... and for every non event that happens (still waiting on any news of charges/convictions of the florida7/toronto14/british24) you will lose more and more of your vaunted freedoms traded in for the illusion of security. How much money has been pumped into air security, and for what? FAA regularly sneaks plastic guns passed screeners, jets being diverted and shadowed by jets over a hysterical woman, whole terminals shut and flight chaos over a 'trial run' of an attempted terror plot by people who didn't even have passports made? How many liberties are you ready to sacrifice for this ‘security’? You’re not a terrorist; you’ve got nothing to hide. Institute a policy of law enforcement demanding everyone hand over their papers upon request. Random home inspections without probably cause. 24/7 phone monitoring. Freedom, Soviet style! Frightened little children, who hide behind daddy's leg, not wanting to face their fear and understand what frightens them, just hide and wait till daddy makes the scary monster go away.
Clinton was assaulted and assailed by the media for trivial shit. He was impeached for having a blowjob. He was raped in the media over these accusations, accusations that had zero merit. Even Coulter admitted as much when she was representing that dumb broad (jones?) but Coulter only took the case because of her PROFESSED hate of Clinton. That’s HATE for the sake of HATE. Stick that in your pipe. The right wing media echo chamber of stupidity is a de-facto agent of conspiracy. The matters you were right about (Bosnian war, Somalia, missile attack in Sudan) were all things i agree with you with. Yet those happened during a 'time of war' (Bin Laden's fatwa issued long before these events), yet the right wing vilified Clinton (rightly) over these issues. Fast-forward a decade, such talk is unpatriotic and treasonous and enabling the enemy. NOT A FUCKING PEEP of this shit during Clinton’s tenure. I wonder why? HYPOCRITICAL BULLSHIT!
Yeah, and Bush did what he did on purpose, selling bogus bullshit Intel on a frightened and ignorant mass. Unfortunately, he put it over on you real good. And there’s tons of evidence of that right here in jims archives.
(legal)? wiretaps? Do you mean legal legal? Or are you implying that the (il)legal NSA wiretaps are legal, because someone who doesn't understand constitutional law says its legal? And until the final FACTS come out, i wont comment, but since it's a British investigation, i don’t see how US domestic spying could be involved.
Islamo Nazis. christ jesus you wingnutters like to coin new ways of saying shit just for the sake of saying shit. I thought they were Islamo Fascists? Only fascism i see is what’s going on in Washington.
Ahhh.. now to answer your mighty fine questions..
1. If you killed my mother, i would wish you dead. You can't negotiate that. So i guess you better remove the precursor event.
2. The dialogue would be simple. "why do you wish to destroy me? what did i do?" then listen... then respond.
3. You haven't been worth communicating with since day one... but your question is a fallacy. The logic of your statement is in error. Terrorists by definition attempt to achieve a political aim by means other than negotiation when such opportunity has been lacking or unreasonable due to a lack of power. They do not murder for the sake of murder. They murder to achieve a political end. When that end is achieved, the murder stops. Case in point. Hezbollah. They wanted US/international troops out of occupied Lebanon. It took the marine barracks bombing to convince Reagan to leave. Did Hezbollah come over to the US and continue killing you? NO, their political aim was achieved and no further murder was required. Fix the logic of your questions thank you.
Mr. Diplomacy, i like that. Bah, on this i will agree with you. There is no seeing 'eye to eye' between us. You have grown up completely differently, a product of your environment as much as i mine. You've been taught different, see things different, analyze different and conclude different. But this is where you will jump in and say 'environment' is not a factor or an excuse. But if that’s the case, why aren't we all carbon copies of each other mentally?
As long as policies are in place that makes terrorists HERO's in the eyes of the weak and those denied justice, you will lose. For every one you kill, 5 will rise. it will not stop. They have home field advantage, and 4th generational warfare on their side. Until the precursors are removed that maintain terrorist ideology, and remove popular support for terrorism as an act of defense and heroism, it won’t stop. The Israelis have had a half century to figure this out, yet they haven’t. They’ve assassinated leader after leader, isolated Arafat, refused to deal with democratically elected Hamas, and continue brutal occupation/incursions into Palestinian territories, and what has it gained them? And you’re copying their failed policy. If/when you ever get around to killing Osama, he will be reveled as a martyr, another will rise to take his place, and they will work twice as hard to honour his memory with another attack against you. The cycle will not stop! And this is what your advocating, unending war.
I am so tired of this debate, but ill never stop responding so long as people continue to spew misnomers, bad facts, illogical arguments and mass hysteria.
In Bush's black n white world where he claims 'your either with us or your with the terrorists', i can say 'fuck you George, I’m with neither of you, I’m with the innocents caught between you two fucks"
Wed Aug 23 2006 11:02 PM
The tip of the ice burg?
Thu Aug 24 2006 7:24 AM
I'm throwing you a bone Mike
Fri Aug 25 2006 9:15 AM
Mike of the Great White North:
Ill accept that 'bone' in the spirit it is given. Likewise i shall return the favour. I want you to sincerly understand a few things, hopefully to bridge the gulf.
I am not antiwar for the sake of antiwar. I 100% agreed with the decision to invade Afghanistan for the limited purpose of ousting the Taliban and capture/kill Bin Laden. Anything extra such as liberation for the people of Afghanistan would be treated as a bonus, but is not the impetus for the misison. Likewise i agree with you as well that ill defined, nationbuilding/intervention missions like Somolia/Kosovo/etc... were outside the bounds of the constitution of the US and were breaches in the authorization of war by congress. I will even further agree with you that the U.N. as an organizatioin is quite useless.
I will even say this. I do not hate George W, for the sake of hating him. I gave him a chance. Did i think he was less educated than most and a clown at the begining? Yes, but did i hate him? No. After 9-11, we indeed all 'become americans'. And i fell prey to the desire to 'carpet bomb' all of Afghanistan and make 'those' people over there pay. Took me days to get my humanity back and realize Bin Laden/Taliban were not one and the same with everyone else.
Point is, my patience eventually wore out with the hype regarding Iraq. That clever phrase 'knowing then what we know now' that is bandied about in the media. Well i 'knew' then what we all know now. His rush to war and his b-team of fact finders. He kicked inspectors out of Iraq when they begged for more time. Thats not a 'all options exhausted' situation. Thats the only reason i have so much disdain for him. Not his domestic policies. I don't care about that.
Im not partisan cuz im not American. I will let Americans determine whether abortion is outlawed or legal, or whether you deport or give amnesty. But you know my views regarding prosecution of terrorism. It is entirely in the purvue of the judicial and law enforcement. And all these things law enforcement can do without destroying the constitution in the process. I only warn you of slipery slopes because the erasure of rights is the path to tyranny. Might not be with W, but would you enjoy having a Democrat prez in office with these same 'unitary' powers George commands? All things to think about.
I want to put all the animosity we've gone through in the past and shelve it. Can we seriously try again and bite our tongues and engage in discourse? Im willing to try. And instead of flying all over the map, if you disagree with me on something, lets just debate one point at a time and not bullet a thousand points in one post. Thanx.
Mon Aug 28 2006 11:00 PM
Mike of the Great White North:
What i meant to say was "would you enjoy having Hillary Clinton in office with these same 'unitary' powers George commands"
See, now that scares me just as much as the thought of 4 years of Cheney :)
Mon Aug 28 2006 11:05 PM
This is something that I wanted to happen on 9/12 (after the initial shock wore off), I feel passionate about this because I believe it should be done!
Wed Aug 30 2006 7:15 AM
Mike of the Great White North:
You know, this may come as a shock, but thats exactly what I told my friends, especially after i heard they were going to build that 'freedom tower' or the spire or whatever it was/is to be. i thought there would be no better way to return to 'normalcy' (i hate that word, its normality) than to erect back the towers that were. It was as New York as the Statue of Liberty.
I miss those towers alot. Everytime i watch an old movie (armageddon, ghostbusters, etc..) and i see the towers, i think, thats what its supposed to look like.
Course my friend said 'thats the way it goes, new building architecture, new opportunity to build a new building, rebuilding the old jus wont happen.' and thats a damn shame.
Wed Aug 30 2006 11:06 AM
Hell has truly frozen over or in Mike’s case Canada’s gone tropical. I have prayed/hoped something like this would happen! I’m almost GIDDY about what I’m going to write next!
MIKE AND I HAVE SOMETHING IN COMMON!!!!! ;-}
I ask those who read this and believe that the twin towers should be resurrected, to join me in joining the http://www.twintowersalliance.com/ and help NYC and America heal this five year old wound.
I do think it’s time to clear some of this “bad air” hopefully I can give you (and those who read this some…) insight as to my problems with the “other side.”
The article from the Tampa Bay Primer was given to you in sarcasm.
First – the article from the Tampa Bay Primer (above) is indicative of the problem(s) I have with you (plural): This article is one of the most racist things I’ve ever read and you’re fine with it no comment at all!
Can you see a: Conservative/Republican leader (pro war) say “We have a Muslim Problem” what kind of uproar would that cause? Or what if it was said in the context of the Katrina tragedy: “We have a black/minority problem” would any Republican leader be able to keep their job afterwards?
The newly reelected mayor of New Orleans (I still cant get my head around that) redirected criticism about not rebuilding N.O. fast enough, saying Ground Hero is still a hole in the ground and no one says anything to Blumberg (I happen to agree with him on this). What about his “Chocolate City” comments? Again if I say NYC should be a VANILLA city, what would you call me, what would you think I am?
Is/was it right (correct) for a member of Congress to bypass security, and when a police officer hold that Congress person to the EXACT standard that everyone else has to follow he gets paint brushed for doing his job – and she gets away with it.
Same thing when another Congressman has an accident, almost kills police sitting in their car because he’s drunk and instead of the cops conducting an investigation the perpetrator gets driven home w/out so much as a breath test (can anyone say CONGRESSIONAL PRIVILAGE)!
Contrary to popular belief I am not a war monger, and I don’t believe the President is either! War is what it is, war when entered into has to be done totally, anything less is murdering your own people/military. You cannot nibble around the edges of your enemy and expect it to be enough. You also cannot retreat from a battle and expect your enemy NOT to pursue. You cannot take away the tools to used to wage war then attack because you feel the military is ill equipped.
Do me a favor, take a good look at the video of him (Bush) in that school in Florida on 9/11 and watch the blood drain from his face as his aid whispers in his ear about what happened in NYC.
After 9/11 if “W” didn’t act, I would’ve impeached him! Since we agree on Afghanistan, lets leave that aside.
About Iraq, let’s just say you’re right – lets just say Saddam DID get rid his WMD. The resolution was also to account for the destruction of said WMD. The inspectors couldn’t find proof of destruction either so if Saddam didn’t have it and he couldn’t prove destruction then where is it?
For 12 years we waited while Saddam played games, got richer at the expense of his own people how much longer should we have waited, how long is enough?!
On 9/11 President Bush made one the most substantive speeches he’s ever made, seconds after the speech George Stephanopoulos said the speech was “not political” Tuesday I hear sound bites of him saying that it was (guess he didn’t get the talking points on 9/11)
Democrats have proven (to me time and again) that they are after political power for power’s sake and nothing more.
I am an American, I am VERY fortunate to have been born in this country; if not for the opportunities this country has for those willing to achieve my mother would not have come here and found my father.
I personally owe this country so much it is impossible for me to repay, the best I can do is live a clean life, obey the law (if I do or don agree with them), pay taxes (even though I feel I pay too much), raise my family to be productive members of society, I take special pride being in the military.
Having attempted to explain (somewhat) my feelings of patriotism…
I can afford to say this because I will receive no backlash – I DO QUESTION PEOPLE’S PATRIOTISM when in plain sight double standards exist, when those same people care more for the “rites” of the enemy then the rites of their fellow Americans not to worry about planes falling out of the sky or being used as missiles.
I see the press abusing their rite to free speech releasing government secrets to the public. Either they are unbelievably naive or they purposefully want to provide information to Al-Qaeda and any other entity that means to do harm to America either way I question their motives and patriotism.
I see my rights being diminished by the Supreme Court (property rites), laws curtailing my rite to free speech (campaign finance reform), or the Judicial & Legislative Branches of my government systematically taking war powers away from the President (which in fact they have NO right to do). War powers are exclusively left in the Executive Branch of Government. Sighting foreign law to determine the outcome of cases brought to the Supreme Court instead to consulting the Constitution. Striping the President of power during a time of war. In fact terrorists have no coverage under the Geneva Conventions, actually enemy combatants found on the battlefield wearing no uniform with no nationality are supposed to be treated as spies and the penalty for being spies is death.
When those same people believe that terrorism can be prosecuted away in criminal courts when this is a national security issue, this small thinking is not only stupid it’s also dangerous.
When the “other “side supports these extreme measures I have no choice but to question their patriotism.
To call the President: a liar, a loser, saying he deliberately misled the people, saying he knew 9/11 was going to happen – and let it.
It is plainly because of this non-stop-attack by my fellow Americans that the world has taken the liberty of also bad mouthing the President - as seen recently in the Creature Cantina A.K.A. the U. N. ( stands for: Un Necessary). Besmirched by the likes of none other then that two bit, wanna be Castro, leader of that banana republic Venezuela: Hugo Chavez if Bush is “the Devil” and it smelled like “sulfur” at the podium, then what did it smell like after Chavez was done? ANSWER: SHIT!!! YET Hugo is embraced by people like Danny Glover! And quiet acceptance by the left of his rant except for a precious few like Chuck Rangel although I disagree with 99% of what he says & does my hat is off to him and those like him! What about the leader of Iran PRAYING for the end of the world in front of the general assembly – not a peep from anyone (except those on the right – but they haven’t gone far enough for me).
Bottom line if you agree with these statements/ideas/people I consider it (and you) TREASONUS and UN-AMERICAN, if you think people like these are correct my feeling is that you should leave the country! I would not have liked any foreign leader to bad mouth Clinton in this way or any other President for that matter.
I will defend the Constitution from being twisted by the left to serve their own political need for power and the President from being defamed, undermined during a time of war, and besmirched on these issues I will not be moved and I will not relent.
Wed Sep 27 2006 7:06 AM
Mike of the Great White North:
No NJ, it's getting colder up here. The fact i agree with you about the 2 towers is purely on the emotional level and aesthetics of NY's skyline, nothing more.
The same article you gave me in 'sarcasm' also speaks volumes of the many 'dysfunctions' i find in you. Just when i thought you may actually begin to see that indeed there is an issue between the US and Israel, you huff n puff about it. You look at the article as a racist assault on 'JEWS', when in fact it speaks to the inherent problem of your foreign policy and how it is crafted to serve the interests of a foreign country, divergent of the interests of your own.
Indeed, it has already been said that 'We have a Muslim problem', spoken by one airheaded conservative commentator after another, from Malkin to Coulter. The inherent difference between Charly Reeses article and those blowhard windbags is that Reese addresses the issues and talks openly about a taboo subject that Americans won't touch with a 50ft pole because the 'lobby' has successfully equated any dialogue about Israel as being anti-semetic. The other difference is that Reese does not advocate the destruction of Israel, just the cessation of their brutal policy. Reese wants the dying to stop. Contrast that to your bases hero's, the evil bitch Coulter who unabashedly promotes the invasion of their countries, conversion by force and genocide to all who fail to submit. Or Malkin who brings about the spectre of internment camps all over again, as if we forgot about WW2. This whole topic and your subservience to serving the interests of Israel puts you into the category of Dual Loyalist.
You are a warmonger through and through. A warmonger supports violent action even when presented with facts that shatter the reasons for that action. You further yourself as a warmonger by defending long dead and thoroughly debunked beliefs in support of said action. You ask, "how much longer should we have waited?" Smart people would say 'Let the inspectors finish their job!" Warmongers say "FUCK IT, LET'S GO IN". Warmongers give platitudes to the many innocents who will die by saying such bullshit like 'well we didn't target them but we all know people die in war'.... right, cept this was a war of choice, and you didn't care if innocents died.. at least not when they're funny brown people couple thousand miles away.
I could go on, but you've shown no growth as a human being to continue this.
"I will defend the Constitution from being twisted by the left to serve their own political need for power and the President from being defamed, undermined during a time of war, and besmirched on these issues I will not be moved and I will not relent."
You serve a King, not the Constitution.
Bring on November!
Wed Sep 27 2006 8:06 PM
It's reading posts like that, from people who fancy themselves authoritative on the Constitution, which really frighten me. I've only been studying it in earnest for the past 4 years as part of academics, pushing and pulling on its clauses and language, reading supplemental material like the Federalist Papers, briefing and reciting the leading cases in Constitutional law, and I've only now arrived at one certain conclusion: I have much more learning to do.
And, as a rule, I wouldn't be foolish enough to make fantastic declarations in certainty without knowing full well there's probably an entire body of case law to refute my very same certainty.
But, I can also spot extraordinarily misplaced assumptions about the foundational document when its nuts and bolts are simply misquoted and misunderstood. Which brings me back to NJ.
Ahhh, NJ. For the love of all that is holy...if you've got such strong feelings about the document, well, I would encourage you to motor on down to the local JC and take a course on it. Please. Or, just read it. Slowly.
And I'll leave you be with a final thought: there's a fucking reason why presidential powers are not enumerated in article I, but in article II.
Thu Sep 28 2006 3:12 AM
Read it. Inform yourself. Notice the difference in size between article I and II.
The Founders just finished shucking off the yolk of a king...the last thing they wanted was to create another one. Our present structure is not what was intended, so include that in the gaggle of schizophrenic tendency should you consider yourself an original textualist.
Since you brought it up, you've now placed in front of me this incongruous interest you have in both anti-constitutional policy and the Constitution itself. It doesn't fit.
I don't question your passion, I only now question why you're willingly commenting on it without knowing the material.
There's a phrase for that where I go: bullshitting your way toward credibility. Problem is, it's easy to get blasted off your self-constructed perch because it's so easily discredited.
Thu Sep 28 2006 3:34 AM