From Jim Gilliam's blog archives
My God is He in Denial

September 17, 2006 2:35 PM

Watch Bush become unglued when questioned about his flawed strategy in Iraq.

More from the archive in Bush.

My God is He in Denial (09.17.2006)

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Previous Entry: Halliburton's latest attack on 'Iraq for Sale' (09.15.2006)

Read the 6 comments.

Mike of the Great White North:

Here is a perfect opportunity to make ammends and see if we've grown as people. Call it a revisitation if you will. With Bush's latest fiasco in trying to rewrite Art.3 of Geneva conventions to save his own ass and leave US troops at the mercy of 'interogations' in future conflicts (which there will be more of with neocons still in power) I would like to revisit one moment in time i had with NJ, to look at the argument, the rationale, and knowing what we know now, would he like to reconsider.

Way back i had an argument regarding detention of presumption of guilt regarding prisinors at Abu Ghraib and Gitmo and the likely use of torture on possible innocently accused persons. The response was par for the course back then.

From NJ on Wed Jun 21 2006 09:24 PM
$10,701 for every Iraqi
"The prisoners at Gitmo...THEY ARE NOT AMERICAN CITIZENS (and neither are you) they are enemy combatants and I hope the rot I hope they die a slow painful death but such will not be the case!"

Today: by Paul C. Roberts
http://www.antiwar.com/roberts/?articleid=9710
"U.S. Iraqi Command says that 18,700 Iraqis have been released since June 2004. U.S. officers told the International Red Cross that 70 to 90 percent of the Iraqi detentions were "mistakes."
"..people who were simply pulled out of their beds or grabbed off streets as "suspected insurgents"
"..sold to naive Americans by warlords who collected a bounty for turning in "terrorists."

Although i knew then what i know now, i will still pose the question again in the hopes of 'bridging' the gap. If you knew then what you know now, would you make the same statement, and are you still making the same statement today that you did back then, in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary.

It's time to step up.

Mon Sep 18 2006 2:33 PM


NJGuardsman:

“Way back i had an argument regarding detention of presumption of guilt regarding prisinors at Abu Ghraib and Gitmo and the likely use of torture on possible innocently accused persons. The response was par for the course back then.”
From NJ on Wed Jun 21 2006 09:24 PM
$10,701 for every Iraqi

"The prisoners at Gitmo...THEY ARE NOT AMERICAN CITIZENS (and neither are you) they are enemy combatants and I hope the rot I hope they die a slow painful death but such will not be the case!"

“In all, the Defense Department has documented hundreds of attacks by Guantanamo detainees on Military Police guards since 2002, ranging from head butting and spitting to routine dousing with cups filled with feces, urine, vomit and sperm.” http://www.armytimes.com/story.php?f=1-292925-1992795.php
http://www.rightwinged.com/2006/07/gitmo_detainees_routinely_atta.html

From: DEC 2002 – JUL 2005:
Assault with bodily fluids* = 232
Assault = 71
Hitting/Kicking = 36
Throwing water or food = 30
Threatening = 29
Battery = 21
Property damage = 5
Inciting disturbance/rioting = 5

* being spat upon to being doused, with cups of semen, feces, spit & vomit.

“detention & presumption of guilt regarding prisoners…” yeah they’re innocent so innocent that the prison guards have to worry about getting shanked and having human fecal waste thrown at them by the detainees, YES - that’s how “innocent people” behave.

I stand by what I said then as I do now. You worry about them and their rites, tell me would you have taken FDR to task for not giving rites to German spies found on American soil during WW2????

Weather you all believe it or not, this is WW3. We’re fighting it in Gitmo and other prisons, we’re also fighting it in Iraq and Afghanistan. This war will not be won by the appeasers or if we flinch from the reality of what we’re up against, and it definitely will not be won by liberals.

Wed Sep 27 2006 7:19 AM


Mike of the Great White North:

It's nice to see some things just don't change.

I would really like to know how your thought process works; it's truly fascinating in a twisted, abhorrent sense only.

All those stats you put up... mean absolutely bubkus. Would you please explain to me exactly what innocent people are supposed to "act" like? Let's analyze your superb insight here for a moment shall we?...

NJ is arrested in the middle of the night in a lovely New Jersey suburb, in fact his whole street is rounded up by screaming Iraqis. That’s right, Iraqis. The U.S. is under the occupational control of the Iraqi interim council. NJ has no clue what they're screaming at him but they got guns trained at his head so he complies.

He is flown out of state to the notorious Alcatraz internment facility. He is not told what he is charged with, he's 'black bagged' and placed in a cell. Eventually the Iraqis beat him, sic dogs on him, water board him. Iraqis, doing this to an American, on American soil. A sub person, who has no rights in his own country, submitting to the will of powerful occupation forces.

Eventually after a few months of isolation without ever being given an opportunity to speak with relatives or heaven forbid, a lawyer, he is told that all 'charges'(never told what) are dropped and he is free to go. He and his family are offered a pittance of $1,000 and asked to go home back to his Monday Night football and root for the liberating Iraqis. Only later does he discover that a neighbour that he borrowed a weed trimmer from and forgot to return got upset so he snitched on him to the Iraqi council and claimed the reward for troublemakers.

This wonderful hypothetical is in fact an actuality should you simply switch the nationalities. Yet wingnut central here believes, against damning evidence to the contrary that each and every last one of them deserves the above situation i just described, because in his mind, it's WW3 (another wingnut vaguery of perception).

Let me say it again just for clarity.... 70 to 90 FUCKING percent of all detainees were released by the U.S. Iraqi Command. I didn't make that stat up. Yet NJ throws his hands up in the air and says SO WHAT...

NJ talks of appeasers and flinching, when the latest NIE comes out with all 16 intelligence services of the US saying everything your doing in Iraq is GROWING more TERRORISTS. How much evidence, fact, and information are you going to need to break through that block you call a skull?

Perhaps you'll have to be waterboarded to find out. Then we'd see if you could resist the opportunity to lash out at your oppressors... Mr. Innocent.

Wed Sep 27 2006 7:32 PM


Dave E.:

NJ is what we called in the military Section 8 material. That wingnut thinking is fascinating in a "studying a caged monkey" sort of way. Attracted to authority figures, no capacity for independent thought, easily scared and outraged, a slave to their own emotions. He must be led. Led with ferocity and certitude. No grey area, no necessity for deductive thinking. Wouldn't get very far in law school. The kind of people you don't want on juries.

Face it: wingnuts are cut from the same cloth as suicide bombers and terrorists.

Thu Sep 28 2006 2:46 AM


Mike of the Great White North:

The irony of this is incomprehendable. Click my name.

Thu Sep 28 2006 3:40 PM


Dave E.:

Consistency has never been this admin's strong suit. But who cares...it's just our moral standing and credibility being flushed. It's about time we've just come out and embraced our gulag by unilaterally making it legal. Remember: they're the worst of the worst! (Except for all of those who aren't; just sucks being them, and as long as it ain't me I could care less.)

Thu Sep 28 2006 3:56 PM


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