From Jim Gilliam's blog archives
California nixes 15,000 Diebold voting machines!

October 28, 2004 12:22 AM

Kevin Shelley, secretary of state: "[Diebold] literally engaged in absolutely deplorable behavior and, to that extent, put the election at risk, jeopardizing the outcome of the election."

James Dunn, Diebold tech worker: "The machine would lock up or lose its software load. A very uncommon thing and not a good thing. And once that machine's locked up you're unable to produce voter cards, which means you're unable to open the election voting machine and people can't vote. But they shipped it anyway."

More from the archive in Corruption, Elections, Incompetence.

California nixes 15,000 Diebold voting machines! (10.28.2004)

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Read the 59 comments.

Dan, Pacifica, CA:

This isn't news, but hey. These machines are flawed because there is no paper trail. it'll all be over next week and we might be able to go back to being humans for a couple of years.

There are some serious issues that people get around talking about. People only talk about how somebody else is wrong, when in actuality everyone is wrong.

I think we need to more look to the future of america, not to the future of the same. George Bush, sadly is going to be re-elected, by fraud or "popular" vote, either way in the end we still have a deeply flawed democracy.

I'm not for radical change, i just want the 90's to come back, everything was good, and i was still in puberty.

Anyhoo, goodluck all, whether the election is a joke or a scam, we scam ourselves by playing the fear game, and pretending that what we have is real. You only live once, we dont have time for this shit.

Thu Oct 28 2004 3:01 AM

Tom from Madison:

Hey, it aint over till its over! Do WHATEVER you can to force a fair count where you live. If Neo-cons cheat AND win, we'll deal with it November 3rd. If they are caught cheating and the courts let it stand, there very well may be rioting in the streets.

But let's not get ahead of ourselves. I'm not conceding defeat by any means now. Polls have been wrong before--don't make them self-fulfilling prophecies!! Polls don't measure the depth of support very well.

The Bush coalition of the willfully ignorant, self-righteously greedy, and intolerant traditionalists is inherently unstable. These people don't like eachother very much. There are major differences to be exploited.

Think about poor white Christian fundamentalists and rich, Jewish conservative Wall Street capitalists locked in a room together hammering out economic issues--e.g. how is GWB going to get these factions to agree on doling out $ for faith-based initiatives with the current huge budget deficit!

Please remember, there are a ton of consequential state & local races. New leaders like Barack Obama will make a major difference in the future.

Thu Oct 28 2004 5:09 AM


TFM - are you REALLY that oblivious? Is your world so limited, your sources of information so blindingly partisan that you are unaware of the widespread Democratic voter fraud that's going on? Not to mention the violence that's being directed at GOP offices nationwide: gunshots fired, union thugs invading, and now some Kerry Fedayeen wacko tried to run down Katherine Harris in Florida.
Ignorance or ideology - which is it?

Thu Oct 28 2004 8:20 AM

raging red:

I hope that whatever happens on November 2nd, the issue of electronic voting gets some serious attention by everyone in time for the next major election. It's a damn shame that these issues couldn't be worked out from 2000 to 2004.

It's not a partisan issue.

Thu Oct 28 2004 9:17 AM

Right Wing Robby:

I thought exactly the same thing when I saw TFM's post. There are so many example of voter fraud on his side of the isle one has to wonder how he could say that.

I do agree. The system is a mess. Illegal aliens voting in our election tops the cake for me. The system is way outta control and needs to be addressed ASAP. In Ohio some counties have more registered voters then their are people living. This polarized election is shedding some light a problem which has exsisted but never got much attention.

Thu Oct 28 2004 9:28 AM

Wild Eyed Anarchist:

"Not to mention the violence that's being directed at GOP offices nationwide: gunshots fired, union thugs invading, and now some Kerry Fedayeen wacko tried to run down Katherine Harris in Florida."

Haha! Comedy. Like you can really tie the gunshots to some Kerry/Democrat supporter. It's not just black and white--there are a whole lot of people who hate Bush and the Neo-Cons, much more than Democrats alone. Some criminal nutjob trying to run someone down getting lumped into people funded by the Kerry campaign? Hah!

I've read several reports from the AP in regards to RNC financed organizations tearing up voter registration cards if they are checked 'democrat'. I have not come across the opposite. Wouldn't be surprised if it exists--but to continually bring up the 'gunshot' incident, or other ridiculous criminal acts on Democrats/Kerry supporters is a joke.

Thu Oct 28 2004 9:56 AM

Wild Eyed Anarchist:

Off topic, but this is hilarious!


Thu Oct 28 2004 9:58 AM


WEA - your post is the internet equivalent of sticking your fingers in your ears anD going "LALALALALALALALALALALA...I CAN'T HEAR YOU"

Thu Oct 28 2004 10:02 AM

Red Ghost:

"In Florida, the GOP has filed plans to place poll watchers at 5,000 polling places, spokeswoman Mindy Tucker Fletcher said. Whether those observers will challenge individual voters depends on the circumstances, she said. 'If there's something blatant, we may choose to do that,' she said...

In Florida, Republican poll watchers will be disproportionately concentrated in minority precincts, according to a Democratic Party analysis of census data and GOP plans filed in five counties. In Miami-Dade, 59 percent of predominately black precincts will have at least one GOP poll watcher, compared with 37 percent of white precincts.

Although Fletcher did not dispute those numbers, she said that the party will not single out black neighborhoods, but rather heavily Democratic ones. 'Those are the places most likely for the Democrats . . . to try to steal the election,' she said."


( you have to register, sorry )

As a new poll worker, the procedure, at least in California, is that ANYBODY who comes into the polling place is allowed to vote. Even if we don't find them on the roster or the supplemental roster and even if we think they're not registered, they are still allowed to fill out a PROVISIONAL ballot. These "special" ballots are then verified through a central board NOT AT THE POLLING PLACE. If the "voter" is not registered, has already voted in another precinct, etc. the ballot is not counted. It is NOT a right of the poll workers, self-appointed watchers or any observing group to challenge individual voters or groups of voters. We have been instructed that anyone has a right to observe our OPEN elections by law. We have also been instructed that ANYONE making it difficult or impossible for voters to vote or otherwise harassing voters can be REMOVED from the polling place. Challenging voters can easily fall into the category of electioneering.

In other words, the place to "challenge" voters or counteract voter fraud is not at the polls. Intimidating voters is unpatriotic, immoral and impedes our democracy.

Thu Oct 28 2004 10:49 AM

raging red:

Having more registered voters than residents isn't NECESSARILY an indication of fraud. Registered voters can move or die and still be listed as registered voters.

Thu Oct 28 2004 10:54 AM


Even this ABC News article gives, in their recap, 11 items that are attacks against Republicans and only 3 that are againt Democrats and one of those is a window being broken by a slingshot.

Seriously, if you believe that Republicans are leading the way in voter fraud, you're either getting your news from Atrios and Kos or else you're just blinded by your ideology.

Thu Oct 28 2004 11:05 AM


"Even if we don't find them on the roster or the supplemental roster and even if we think they're not registered, they're still allowed to fill out a provisional ballot..."

So your job as a poll worker is....what, exactly? To let EVERYBODY vote? You have no enforcement power to prevent clearly fraudulent voting? Sounds like they NEED the poll watchers out there...

Thu Oct 28 2004 11:15 AM

Independent Jones:

If somebody not sitting at a table with a big list of names on it and some indication he or she is a poll worker tries to talk to me or investigate my vote worthiness, I will promptly and politely request that that person go to hell.

Thu Oct 28 2004 11:24 AM

Tom from Madison:

No I'm not oblivious. I know what has gone on in Texas, Florida and elsewhere. Black voters in particular have been disenfranchised deliberately by Republicans and their operatives. As usual republicans are counter-charging, not defending. They have no defense. Tens of thousands were erroneously put on convicted felon lists in 2000. It's happening again. We're also seeing threats and intimidations. Jeb Bush is a huge part of this effort.

The Republicans have a proven track record of voter suppression. It's definitely possible that the loyal excuse makers for Bush on this and other forums are on PAC or RNC payrolls.

Karl Rove himself may be orchestrating attacks on Republican targets in order to create a backlash. He did it in Alabama. Read this month's Atlantic. I guarantee this story won't be on Fox News. There's nothing scarier to the neo-cons than a large Black voter turnout!!!

Thu Oct 28 2004 11:25 AM

Right Wing Robby:

Need is an understatment. Under the guidlines he just outlined, I could fly in some terrorists to California and the first red blooded American to try and stop them from voting would be kicked out.
How about illegal aliens? No problem there I assume.

That is unpatriotic, immoral and a impedes democracy. I am shocked at what I just read.

Thu Oct 28 2004 11:27 AM

Tom from Madison:

Would anyone on the right care to discuss Diebold's resistance to designing voting machines that produce a paper trail?

Thu Oct 28 2004 11:33 AM

Tom from Madison:

What about Diebold CEO's fervent support of Bush? Any conflict of interest there?

Thu Oct 28 2004 11:36 AM

Red Ghost:


Yes. To let EVERYBODY vote. That's the job. Give people ballots and allow them to vote. It's that simple.

Thu Oct 28 2004 11:44 AM

Red Ghost:

Right Wring Robby:

Now, how exactly, as a poll worker, am I supposed to ascertain the difference between a "terrorist" and a "red blooded American?"

Oh, RIGHT, the "terrorists" are the ones wearing turbans. Sorry, I forgot.

The "terrorists" and "illegal aliens" still have to fill out the PROVISIONAL ballot which is SUBJECT TO VERIFICATION. The ballot also has a serial number with which said "terroist" or "illegal alien" can use as a tracking number after the election to see if his or her ballot was counted.

"*Not all ballots are counted on election night. Examples include absentee ballots received in the mail too late to be included in the election night results, absentee ballots dropped off at polling places, provisional ballots, and challenged ballots."

Note from California Secretary of State Kevin Shelley

Thu Oct 28 2004 11:52 AM

Tom from Madison:

Maybe red-blooded "traditionalists" like RWR would like to return to the good old day when we had poll taxes and literacy tests--for those who weren't scared away by the lynchings.

Thu Oct 28 2004 11:57 AM

Right Wing Robby:

Red Ghost,

Does that include Illegal aliens? Non US citizens? Terrorists? How about Yassar Arafat? People who fly over from france to vote, are you going to let them vote too? What if Kim Jong-il shows up? Is it your job to help him vote too?

I assume when you say everyone, you mean everyone. But I just want you to say yes to all these catagories of people just to be clear about it.

And then I want you to explain to me why I should care about anything you say in regardes to voter fraud. How can

Thu Oct 28 2004 12:02 PM

Red Ghost:

I think it's important to note that MOST voters coming through a polling place will be on the roster. There is also a "supplemental" roster that lists registered voters that were, due to time restraints, not able to be included in the main roster.

The point is that there are provisions in the event that a voter is registered yet does not show up in the roster. Maybe he or she moved and had yet to reregister. Perhaps it is just a clerical error. Again, the polling place is NOT the place to challenge voters.

For instance, there was a statewide initiative not to long ago to allow voter registration to happen at the polls. Californians turned it down. At lest here, you still have to register to vote.

And why aren't people up in arms about North Dakota, the only state in the Union where NO ONE registers to vote?

Thu Oct 28 2004 12:05 PM

Red Ghost:

Right Wring Robby:

Something tells me your either underage or have never voted. I'm not exactly sure how somebody even once involved in the process could be so hysterical about international leaders or "people who fly over from France" attempting to vote in our presidential election.

I'm done attempting to explain this to you. Be responsible for your own education on the matter. Oh, yeah, and don't forget to vote November 2nd.

Thu Oct 28 2004 12:11 PM


The North Dakota situation must be addressed forthwith!

What if Canadians were to vote in RED BLOODED AMERICAN ELECTIONS?!

Thu Oct 28 2004 12:11 PM

Red Ghost:


Is there a Spelling and Grammar Officer anywhere?

Thu Oct 28 2004 12:14 PM


Jimmy looks exactly like I pictured him, A puny indoctrinated limp wrist bookworm. He is a useful fool.
Take care commie

Thu Oct 28 2004 12:41 PM


Red Ghost,

You're wrong on all accounts.

In this one thread you have called Bush supporters willfully ignorant, self-righteously greedy and intolerant. You have insinuated that I am racist against people whose religion requires the use of a turban and you have said that Republicans don’t want black people to vote.

You are the reason we need poll watchers.

Thu Oct 28 2004 12:44 PM

Tom from Madison:

RWR, please give credit where credit is due. I made those statements and proudly stand by them. That said, I do generally agree with Red Ghost.

Why the sensitivity? Limbaugh, Hannity, O'Reilly, et al have been saying far worse for far longer about those on the left. Guess what? It's payback time!

Here are some issue connections:
Willfully ignorant--applies to stem cell research resistors.
Righteously greedy--applies to those favoring tax cuts in a time of war.
Intolerant Traditionalists--applies to those wishing to continue denying full civil rights to gays.

Each of these applies to large segments of Republicans. Also, Jeb Bush is doing GWB's and Karl Rove's bidding by denying Black Floridians their franchise.

This is the kind of winning coalition the Republicans are hoping for.

Thu Oct 28 2004 1:23 PM

raging red:

I don't get the debate over provisional ballots. It's not a difficult concept to grasp.

Except for early voting, there is one day and one day only for a person to go to the polls and vote. If that person is turned away because his name is very close to or the same as, say, someone on the felon list in Florida, and that person is not allowed to vote, and it is later determined that he should have been able to vote, he has NO RECOURSE. It's too late. He missed his chance to exercise his fundamental constitutional right to vote because of a clerical or poll worker error.

So let him vote, using a provisional ballot. THEN, after the fact, elections officials will verify whether or not the person was in fact eligible to vote. If yes, the vote counts. If no, the vote doesn't count. Simple.

There's nothing fraudulent about that.

The fact is that Republicans have done things such as - trying to get voter registrations thrown out because people didn't check the box verifying they were U.S. citizens.

If the concern is that these people are not in fact citizens, why is throwing out the registrations the remedy? Shouldn't the remedy be simply verifying whether they are citizens?

I agree that the place to challenge voters is NOT at the polls on election day. Provisional balloting is a very sensible way to avoid fraud, while protecting people's fundamental right to vote.

Thu Oct 28 2004 1:55 PM

Right Wing Robby:

Illegal Aliens voting, getting offical state id is a issue with me. Letting them vote drives me crazy. The truth is, there will be illegal aliens voting, and some of them will count. I think that is reasonable to say.

I generally dont attack people here. I definitely got a little hot under the collar, and for that I apologize.

Thu Oct 28 2004 2:06 PM

Johan Sundberg (SE):

One thing i never quite understood is, why does you people even have to register to vote. Shouldnt there be a list of all legal us citizens already, cant that be used instead? (and from what i read, this is how north dakota does it?) Not everyone likes to plan many weeks ahead and go and register (i know that at least i have said "no, im not going to vote" until like 30 minutes before the polls are opened).

One other thing, is it even legal that there is a question about party association on the registration form? Shouldnt that be a thing that one thing to be kept secret so that any discrimation can be avoided? I know that is how we do it over here.

Thu Oct 28 2004 2:17 PM

Right Wing Robby:

No. Because the USA voting system requires certain party affiliation to vote in the primaries.

In other words. A Registered republican cant vote in the democratic primary. If that was allowed every republican would go vote for the weakest Democrat in order to ensure victory in November. You can register as an independant but still cannot vote in the primaries.

Thu Oct 28 2004 2:27 PM


I thinks its a sad state when americans dont trust americans. Perhaps we should just have another Civil War to figure out which way the country will head. Keep it simple and fresh, plus the arms industry will profit, so all bases are covered.

Thu Oct 28 2004 2:31 PM

Johan Sundberg (SE):

I see, that actually makes sence. The problem with potential discrimination still exists thought.
Stay with me for a second while im thinking out loud here. What about if all precidental candidats were indipendant (which as far as i understand can do, see Nader), wouldnt that kind of remove the need for a primary and at the same time give people a bigger feeling of privacy. Of course this would give alot of potential precidental cadidats but that wouldnt necissary be a bad thing. And the two big parties can still chose a candidat that they could indirektly can support.

Just my 0,2 SEK (a little bit original anyways ;) )

Thu Oct 28 2004 2:50 PM

Johan Sundberg (SE):

And yes, got a little bit of topic.
But my thoughts about this subject is, if everyone that is a legal citizen can vote (no registration or whatever needed, no excluding of any us subgroups as criminals) then all the poll worker have to do is to check the name of a list. Place the envelope with the vote in the box (or however the actual voting is done), then no need for any recite for what and who did the voting. Then one can always argue over the use of internet connected voting machines, on a personal level i would be feeling better with a more personal voting experience (like an envelope containing vote to poll worker who place it in big box).

Just another 0,2 SEK.

Thu Oct 28 2004 3:12 PM


Couple problems with the supposed black voter suppression stories. Johnny Kerry claims that over a million black voters in Florida where disenfranchised in 2000. The US Civil Rights Commission also claimed that "suppression" took place but was unable to produce a single (not one in a million) registered voter who was not allowed to cast their vote. In fact, in Florida where the black vote was "suppressed" blacks made up 10% of the population but made up 17% of the voters. The democrats could only wish that Republicans would suppress the black vote in other states for turnouts like that.

Problem is, Kerry has pissed away the enblock voting habits that previous democrat candidates had enjoyed in the past.

"A New York Times poll released Tuesday showed that among likely voters, 47 percent support Bush, 45 percent are for Sen. John Kerry and 2 percent for Ralph Nader.

But in the race breakdown, the Bush-Cheney ticket is buoyed by an amazing 17 percent from African-Americans. (Kerry receives 76 percent of the black voters and Nader only 1 percent.)
Although 17 percent is still less than one in five, it is more than twice the tiny 8 percent turnout that the Bush-Cheney ticket received in the 2000 election."

Thu Oct 28 2004 3:17 PM


I agree with Johan with the current means of electronic linkage there should be a way to link Social Security numbers on a national data base, one vote per number.

By no means of trickory I am currently registered twice. When I moved I filled out a new voter registration as instructed for my new address. Last week in the mail I got my registration certificates for both my old and new address. Nothing illegal was done, the elections board just screwed up. The only way it would be detected is through an exhaustive recount process.

Thu Oct 28 2004 3:27 PM


wrong wing,

You said:
"The truth is, there will be illegal aliens voting, and some of them will count. I think that is reasonable to say."

And you would be wrong. Illegal aliens don't even open bank accounts for fear of being nailed by the INS. They typically avoid any confrontation with government or law enforcement. What makes you think they would dare to register to vote? Their way of life hangs by a string daily. They're not going to do anything to emperil it, if they can help it.

They don't care who is the next president. All they care about is staying in this country and making a little more money for their family.

Only in your paranoid nightmares, wrong wing.

This "illegal aliens voting" crap is just an excuse for the Republic Party to bully and harrass naturalized citizens going to the polls.

Thu Oct 28 2004 4:22 PM

Right Wing Robby:


Yeah, there life hangs by a string daily. Sure. Isn't California thinking about giving them drivers licenses? Gimmie a break. Hangs by a string daily, whatever.

BTW Paul, what happened to your missing weapons story? I noticed that story was 'scrubbed' off the liberal blog sites in record time. If I remember correctly you were certain you were right about that one too.

You just keep following your liberal media all the way down the rabbit hole.

Thu Oct 28 2004 5:40 PM


You have to show some form of picture I.D to:
Cash a check
Open a bank account
Stay at a hotel
Get a lease or mortgage
Get a fishing / hunting license
Etc., Etc., Etc...

Why are Democrats so adamantly opposed to requiring I.D. to be shown before voting?

Why are they so resistant to such a basic safeguard, one with which we ALL have to put up with in other aspects of our daily lives?

Here's one example (of many), gleaned from a Google search of "Democrat voting I.D.":

Fri Oct 29 2004 4:48 AM

Tom from Madison:

dhermesc, you're wrong on several accounts.

The best estimate of the number of disenfranchised minority voters in Florida in 2000 is around 90,000, most of them Black. There are well-documented lists of alleged felons that Florida used to keep many Blacks from voting. These have been documented.

There are many other sources documenting this.

Also, Kerry didn't claim 1 million Black disenfranchised voters in Florida in 2000. So please don't repeat that erroneously exagerated claim and then try to use is to discredit him.

However, the issue is not what Kerry claimed--it's how many actually were. More importantly, how many will there be this time around?

Fri Oct 29 2004 6:36 AM


Don't tell us that the strongest democracy on earth," said Democratic presidential candidate John Kerry in a recent speech for the NAACP, "that a million disenfranchised African-Americans and the most tainted election in American history is the best that we can do. Don't tell us that we already see the purging taking place down in Florida. Don't tell us we don't have a right to expect an election in the United States that sets an example of democracy to the world. We can do better, and we will."

You are correct, his million claim wasn't limited to Florida, it was nation wide. However your link doesn't support your "documented" claim that blacks where "disenfranchised". It goes so far as to claim that the investigation into voters being "disenfranchised" constitutes intimidation.

"In January 2001, the US Civil Rights commission investigated the 2000 election. 6 of 8 commissioners were Democrats. Most unbiased observers would consider this to be somewhat lopsided. Logically one would expect the committee, if they had any bias, to find in favor of the Democrats. Here are their findings:

- No evidence that a single person was intimidated, harassed, or prevented from voting by Florida law enforcement.

- No evidence of systematic disenfranchisement of African-American voters.

- On charges that Republican election supervisors threw the election: in 24 of the 25 counties with the highest percentage of non-voted ballots for president, the county supervisor was a Democrat. In the remaining county, the supervisor was an independent."

Fri Oct 29 2004 7:41 AM


"Also, Kerry didn't claim......

From this Palm Beach Post article:

"Never again will a million African Americans be denied the right to exercise their vote in the United States of America,"

Sounds to me like he was saying a million were "disenfranchised"...maybe not all in Florida but it doesn't seem to be (from this direct quote of Kerry) to be "erroneously exagerated[sic]".

Face it - Kerry will say ANYTHING to get elected...

Fri Oct 29 2004 7:55 AM

Tom from Madison:

The above quote proves me correct. Kerry didn't say in Florida. The 1 million is nation-wide.

You to on to cite an early report--January 2001. Many facts weren't known then. Look below and learn!

Here's the exectutive summary conclusion:

The Commission found that the problems Florida had during the 2000 presidential election were serious and not isolated. In many cases, they were foreseeable and should have been prevented. The failure to do so resulted in an extraordinarily high and inexcusable level of disenfranchisement, with a significantly disproportionate impact on African American voters. The causes include the following: (1) a general failure of leadership from those with responsibility for ensuring elections are properly planned and executed; (2) inadequate resources for voter education, training of poll workers, and for Election Day trouble-shooting and problem solving; (3) inferior voting equipment and/or ballot design; (4) failure to anticipate and account for the expected high volumes of voters, including inexperienced voters; (5) a poorly designed and even more poorly executed purge system; and (6) a resource allocation system that often left poorer counties, which often were counties with the highest percentage of black voters, adversely affected.

Since the Commission began its hearings, Florida has enacted legislation to address many of the problems of the last election. The Commission publicly applauded this development as soon as it occurred, and even before the details of the legislative package were finalized. The Commission reiterates that Florida and its leaders deserve credit for the new election law.

However, the same leadership that effectively ensured passage of the recent legislation was missing in the years and months leading up to the November 2000 election. If the same level of leadership had been present, the Commission’s investigation reveals that most of the problems during the past election would have been prevented, and the dire consequences documented in this report could have been avoided.

Unfortunately, the recent legislation fails to address several other important issues, including accessibility for persons with disabilities, language assistance, and other barriers to voter participation. Additionally, the new law permits provisional balloting only under limited circumstances. While provisional voting is a positive step, the legislation is too restrictive to adequately address possible situations that might require its use. The provision should be amended to ensure additional voters are not disenfranchised.

Moving forward, the Commission urges that the same leaders who worked to enact the recent election reforms work even more diligently to ensure they are implemented effectively. Moreover, the Commission encourages Florida’s leaders to expeditiously take up the issues they did not address in the last legislative package, such as making rules on purging of former felons less punitive and more in line with the mainstream of other states."

Fri Oct 29 2004 7:55 AM

Dave E.:

*shakes people out of pristine fantasy land*

Holy smokes. If anybody actually thinks that their party has its hands clean while the other is the only one doing dastardly deeds...well, the weather must be perfect in Totallyincorrect town, population YOU. In reading this thread, I'm led to believe many of you feel just this way.

Dems and Reps are both meddling into voting affairs, each to different degrees at any time in our history. Face it though, the Reps are much more effective at such racketeering. Anybody thinks otherwise, won't be moving from that ethereal city anytime soon.

And I think Kerry's gonna win. For the incumbent to be struggling this much bodes well for the challenger. Now, it's just a gut feeling I have...and I'm not running a Presidency on "instincts", so I freely admit I could be wrong.

Fri Oct 29 2004 8:19 AM

Tom from Madison:

Agreed, there is malfeasance on both sides. However, much more $ and much more official corruption coming from the right.

When it becomes widespread and race-based, and changes who actually becomes President in a close election, something has to be done.

The sad thing is Jeb Bush and his own administration have been doing this openly and officially in Florida for years.

I'm remined of Bob Dylan's words:
"You don't need to be a weather man to know which way the wind is blowing."

Fri Oct 29 2004 8:31 AM


Tom, when you start quoting facts your claim gets pretty weak. You started out claiming:

Jeb Bush is doing GWB's and Karl Rove's bidding by denying Black Floridians their franchise.

Then you can only support it by stating that the "disenfranchisement" occurred by not allowing felons to vote, voters not being "trained" to vote properly, and a poorly designed ballot.

Your quote above states that when Florida stringently enforced state law is seen a punitive to felons. The conclusion that the purge list was faulty and poorly executed did not result in anyone not being able to vote, nowhere is that claim made by any "reputable" source, including the Civil Rights Commission. Granted if you where "accidently" put on that list it was a PIA to vote but they found no one (not one in 90,000) who was denied their right to vote. On top of that whites where more likely to be mistakenly added to the felon list then black.

Voter training? Anyone with half a brain would know that leads to voter tampering, or claims of voter tampering. If a Republican Governor had instated "voter training" the howls of protest would have made heard from sea to shining sea.

To top it off the "poor ballot" design came directly from County election supervisor, a democrat. Carl Rove has so much power that he can reach out to a Palm Beach election supervisor a month before the election and influeance the design of their ballot? There's a village missing it idiot and I think I found him.

Fri Oct 29 2004 8:51 AM

Tom from Madison:


You're misleading & misquoting! The Commision is reputable. Their findings are unambiguous and telling.

Training refers to poll-workers, not voters! Obviously it's essential to have poll workers who know what they're doing--especially when they have a list that erroneously identifies tens of thousands of Black voters as felons who should be disqualified.

Please take the time to read the document!

If you need more sources, check out:

Fri Oct 29 2004 9:13 AM

Roy DeMeo:

I’m hoping, no praying, some GOP thug challenges me on election day as I exercise my right to vote Bush & Co. out. Violence is never the solution in and of itself, but it sure will feel good to put my boot up his ass.

Fri Oct 29 2004 9:37 AM



"Why are Democrats so adamantly opposed to requiring I.D. to be shown before voting?"

I'm not opposed to that.

Fri Oct 29 2004 9:52 AM

Tom from Madison:

I'm not opposed to requiring ID at voting either.

Why are so many Republicans opposed to answering (or even askiing) objective questions?

Fri Oct 29 2004 10:23 AM


So you're all for it, huh? Well your Democratic representatives sure aren't. Did you see that article I linked to earlier, TFM? Assuming you mean Madison, WI...
"But Democrats say the bill doesn't stand a chance of making it through the Senate, which they control."
"Doesn't stand a chance" ...Very telling. Not, "We can work something out because this is an important issue" but - NO CHANCE.
And it's not just Wisconsin - they're also opposed in Mississippi:
From the article:
"Debates similar to those in Mississippi have arisen in a number of states. Republicans tend to favor universal voter ID as a way to prevent fraud. Democrats oppose voter ID measures..."

In New Mexico:
"The ID requirement for voter registration has been historically opposed by Democrats, who argue it is an obstacle to voting."

So although you two might talk a good game, you're WAY out of touch with the prevailing philosophy of the Dems which can be summed up as:
"If you try to make people show ANY form pf ID to vote, we'll play the race card so fast it will make your head spin".

Fri Oct 29 2004 10:38 AM


sorry...wrong link. Google democrat voting I.D.

Fri Oct 29 2004 10:40 AM


TFM, what happened to GWB & Carl Rove ordering Jeb Bush to suppress the Black vote? Even the Civil Rights Commission with its weighted agenda couldn't produce a single instance of a person being denied their constitutional right to vote.

Their conclusion was that the heavier then expected turnout taxed the system.

"(2) inadequate resources for voter education, training of poll workers, and for Election Day trouble-shooting and problem solving;"

Excuse me voter "education", I'll restate then, "Iimagine the howls of protest from coast to coast if a Republican Governor mandated voter education to ensure that people voted correctly." One would think that with over 2.6 BILLION dollars being spent on election 2004 the voters would have some idea on how to vote.

Fri Oct 29 2004 11:03 AM

Tom from Madison:

I'm for using photo IDs as long as there is a reasonable way to get one in time to register and as long as there aren't other barriers to allowing people to vote.

The problem isn't with people knowing how to vote, The problem is the lack of uniform voting and reporting procedures.

GWB and Republicans generally have benefitted from voter suppression--especially in the South. It is clear that Jeb Bush played a big role in getting the job done in Florida in 2000. He's doing it again in 2004.

As far as Bush ordering Rove goes, that's probably NOT happenting! it's more likely that Rove is making the decisions and suggesting how Bush should talk and act. The puppet doesn't pull the strings, the puppet-master does!

Fri Oct 29 2004 2:03 PM


"It is clear Jeb Bush played a big role..."

You seem to just overlook the efact that the vast majority of county election supervisors in Fla are Democrats...THEY run the show in their respective counties, not Jeb Bush for heaven's sake. If there's disenfranchisement going on, it is most likely at the hands of Democrats at the county level.

Mon Nov 1 2004 4:33 AM

Tom from Madison:

County officials don't "run the show". The have to work with the official information they receive.

Jeb does his dirty work by having his State Dept produce lists of "felons" to exclude. These lists erroneously exclude tens of thousands of eligible Black voters.

There is also intimidation from the Florida National Guard and some law enforcement officials.

Mon Nov 1 2004 9:17 AM


The National Guard? Where was the National Guard called out?

"County officials don't run the show"?
Have you ever been to Florida, Tom? Aside from spring break, that is?
I was born and raised there - my family has been in Fla for generations and generations and in MY experience, the county supervisor of elections DOES indeed run the show. There are different ballots from county to county, different methods of voting from county to county...yet all these Democrats are actually just puppets, dancing on Jeb Bush's strings?
Yeah, right....

Mon Nov 1 2004 10:52 AM


What kind of voting show can you run when the equipment is antiquated and varies so much from one county to another?

Despite your assertions, the Florida Secretary of State has huge power to decide whose votes get accurately counted, and whose don't.

By the way I've been to Florida 8 times, never on Spring break. Best wishes for a fair, full count!

Tue Nov 2 2004 9:31 AM

Jim Gilliam
Jim Gilliam


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