November 17, 2004 7:57 PM
Has he lost his mind? Of course not. If Senator Ben Nelson of Nebraska were to take Rove's offer of agriculture secretary, it would open up a Senate seat which would then be appointed by Republican governor Mike Johanns, increasing the Republican majority in the Senate to 56-43.
Rove wants a Democrat in Bush's cabinet! (11.17.2004)
Next Entry: The most expensive taxi ride in the world: (11.22.2004)
Previous Entry: Small Businesses vs. Working Families (11.15.2004)
I also read somewhere that Joe Lieberman has said he would consider a position in Bush's cabinet. Don't know if Bush & Co. are considering him for anything, but what an evilly genius tactic - try to get up to 60 Repubs in Congress by recruiting Democratic suckers into the administration!
Thu Nov 18 2004 8:12 AM
Right Wing Robby:
Good.
Thu Nov 18 2004 8:32 AM
oops - "in Congress" should be "in the Senate" of course
Thu Nov 18 2004 9:46 AM
David:
Haha awesome.. What a great idea. Rove really is the "architect" of the bush matrix.
Thu Nov 18 2004 5:42 PM
Aaron:
Ha ha! Brilliant!
I'll get it just drives lefties NUTS to see the GOP at work continuing to build their majority, political strength, and influence in American culture...
Sat Nov 20 2004 9:25 AM
Paul:
Aaron,
Twist the knife...
Sat Nov 20 2004 10:53 PM
Tom from Madison:
Aaron:
there is a difference between influencing American culture and ruining it!
America is becoming a place where the religious freedom an individual has depends on the religion being practiced. Non-religious right members are now second class citizens.
Influence is being openly bought on Capital Hill by the richest corporations. Access to education and a brighter future is diminishing for most people while jobs are being sent overseas. Personal debt is at an all time high. Meanwhile we are fighting a war on money borrowed from our chldren's future.
In short, the American dream is being killed by Republicans. Think about how much debt your kids will inherit. Then think about what Republicans did to make it happen!
Mon Nov 22 2004 7:30 AM
Right Wing Robby:
Tom, I am a non religious right member. Tom, Im not a second class citizen. Religious freedom is being attacked, by the ACLU. I would personally like to thank them for protecting me from the evil group known as the boy scouts. These little kiddie poo's where out to spread evil and finally have been stopped!
All I read and hear everyday is attack after attack on Christianity. Here and elsewhere, its being "blamed" for the reason George Bush won. And from your own lips, is my example number one.
Whats happening isnt protection of anything, its suppression. We have all read about Christmas being banned from towns across America because it may offend 1 or 2 people.
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/601546/posts
No more silent night? You call this freedom?
http://brian.carnell.com/archives/years/2000/12/000041.html
Our traditions are being watered down and taken away from us.
"The result of sanitizing Christmas is now within sight: an undistinguished, uninspiring public celebration, devoid of religious or cultural significance or indeed of beauty, with nothing left but multiculturalist pap and tawdry commercialism. I do not believe that grim fate is inevitable. But that future will indeed be ours if we remain so unnerved by the thought of giving offense to those looking for a reason to be offended that we are afraid to celebrate our own culture, tradition, and religion."
http://www.amconmag.com/12_15_03/article2.html
Tom, Why is it that Christians are being driven into closets to practice there faith. Why dont they have the right public displays? I thought this was a free country. I guess not, not according to ACLU.This poor 7 year old wont be reading anything about Christmas in school! Lets sue her instead!
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=28441
There are countless examples of this. I thought this was a free country. I thought America was different then so many other oppressive governments that blocked religious practice. Religious freedom is being attack alright, but not by your definition.American culture is being destroyed by the left. Its being pounded into submission with lawsuit after lawsuit.
You left people have lost sight of freedom and replaced it with political correctness. You want American society to be all grey, instead of red white and blue.
Tom you say:
"America is becoming a place where the religious freedom an individual has depends on the religion being practiced"Lets see the examples. You lefties are very good at throwing out statements like this. Back it up. Where, when and how Tom.
The left is taking away freedom in this country, not enhancing it.
Mon Nov 22 2004 9:05 AM
tomaig:
You're quite the drama queen, aren't you, Tom?
"Influence is being openly bought on Capitol Hill by the richest corporations"
And it's a pleasant change from the Clinton era when it was being sold to the freaking Chinese Communists.
"non-Religious right members are now second class citizens"
Really? You mean there are separate drinking fountains for atheists now? Or back-door-access only for Jews?
What a bunch of hysterical hyperbole....Better get some smelling salts in case you faint from the angst of it all.
Mon Nov 22 2004 10:59 AM
Paul:
"Think about how much debt your kids will inherit. Then think about what Republicans did to make it happen!"
Tom, that's a lot of thinking you're asking for from a group which has shown a strong propensity not to use their noggins. Why don't you try something simple first, like turning lead into gold?
Mon Nov 22 2004 11:59 AM
Tom from Madison:
Hey Tomaig & RWR:
How about an answer to tmy national debt question? It wasn't that long ago that conservatives wanted a balanced budget amendment to the Constitution--part of the contract with America. Remember? That seems to have gone the way of term limits. Tell me, who is going to pay for this war?
There are many examples of favorable treatment for the religious right. For starters, how about three words: Faith-based inititatives. This is government $ going mostly to conservative Christian churches and their chosen charities. What do you suppose happens to Islamic charities looking for these funds? Do you think they get the same treatment as Evangelicals?
Tomaig: It's very telling that you don't consider Jews to be part of the religious right. Is that your bigotry showing? Many Orthodox Jews would be very surprised to find they're not included. I have conservative friends who are Jewish, Catholic, and fundamentalist who would all consider themselves to be part of the religious right. All of these folks have suffer to some extent from the problem of mutual intolerance. If they lose focus on hating liberals, their animus turns toward eachother!
It is enlightening to see this kind of attack and the "drama queen "language coming from the far right. Intolerance of Jews and gays is indicative of the Nazi sympathies sported by many of the religious right. Second class citizenship for gays is an idea frequently promulgated by the religious right and touted by Bill O'Reilly, Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson, Sean Hannity, and Rush Limbaugh.
In the interest of full-disclosure, I'm an ex-Catholic, heterosexual musician. Thanks for the kind words regarding my drama abilities!
Mon Nov 22 2004 1:06 PM
Cici:
"You're quite the drama queen, aren't you, Tom?"
You're one to talk, really.
While I do agree that Christian Fundamentalists contribute a huge problem, it's not THE problem really. Another big problem is mid-country people who should've voted against Bush but instead voted FOR Bush, and it probably wasn't even because they were religious. A union member on the radio was saying that his fellow union members were by all means Democrats, but there would be one issue they might have a different opinion on, say maybe they were anti-abortion or were against gun control. Well, along comes Bush basically catering to this one difference of opinion and wins them over enough to get their vote.
I'm getting around to reading a book called: "What's the Matter With Kansas?" by Thomas Frank, which covers and aspect of why the majority of the Great Plains voted for Bush back in 2000. I'm hoping it'll be a good read.
Mon Nov 22 2004 2:06 PM
Tom from Madison:
Cici,
I agree, Bush absolutely has people voting against their own best interests because they are convinced the common enemy is "Liberalism." I believe a summary of "What's the Matter with Kansas?" appeared in Harper's a few months back. Thomas Frank was on C-Span a while back. He's very insightful. I plan to read his book as well.
I am optimistic about the future. At some point, rationality will return to the electorate. People will realize that peace, prosperity, and shared wealth like we had in the 1990s are better than the our present path toward debt, armagedon and plutocracy in the name of Jesus.
...to get back to the topic at hand, I hope Ben Nelson and other sitting Democrats in the Senate and House have the common sense to just say 'No' to any request to participate in Bush's cabinet.
On another front, if Olympia Snow and Arlen Specter get too much guff from the Jesus-landers, I'm thinking they'd be more than welcome to join their Blue state friends as Democrats.
Mon Nov 22 2004 2:29 PM
Right Wing Robby:
You Pompous self-righteous bunch of liberals.
You STILL dont get it do you. Listen to yourselves. You actually believe that the mid country folks are too dumb to know whats in their own best interests. You actually believe you know whats better for their families.You sit there and make statements like who they "should've voted for" and that they voted against their "own best interests." You call them irrational because of their choice for President.
WOW! Well how nice of you to inform the little people of middle America how dumb they are. How nice of you to let them now their opinion isnt valid and they are too dumb to know the difference.
Oh Man. Thank you so much for making my night. You guys dont have a clue. You have no concept of why you lost and the best part is, your gonna lose again. Your gonna lose again because you dont get it.
So in 4 years please tramp around your Hollywood actors and rock stars and tell middle America whats best for them. I dont even have to know whose running to know you'll lose by more then you did this year.
Keep up the good work.
Mon Nov 22 2004 4:26 PM
And sadly, this is one time I completely and totally agree with RWR.
Dems have been so caught up in trying to convince people to vote in their naked self interest, when they are far more interested in voting for the greater benefit of mankind. They just happen to think gay marriage will destroy the fabric of civilization while I happen to think un-checked American hegemony leading to "pre-emptive" wars is more dangerous.
Mon Nov 22 2004 4:48 PM
Paul:
"Well how nice of you to inform the little people of middle America how dumb they are. How nice of you to let them now their opinion isnt valid and they are too dumb to know the difference."
Don't mention it. Glad to be of service.
Mon Nov 22 2004 5:18 PM
Paul:
"You call them irrational because of their choice for President."
I personally call them "hypocrites" and "zealots". Millions of Christian warriors intent on converting the world at the point of a gun. This is so far from the teachings of Jesus Christ, it boggles the mind. Trying to end the world in order to bring about the rapture.
As an atheist, I'm more than happy to wash my hands of your bloody war. I do *not* enjoy watching our country and Iraq endure a live reenactment of the Vietnam War, with all of its stupidity and monumental waste of human life.
Mon Nov 22 2004 5:40 PM
Cici:
Well, I was making a point, not a statement. And I sure as hell wouldn't tell them who to vote for either. I don't support Bush, but I wasn't an advocator for Kerry either. If Kerry wasn't strong enough to make issues clear enough and go for the gusto (so to speak), then I don't know how things would've been like with him in office. People think there's something wrong with my head because I don't choose one side or the other.
I could always say that I have enough understanding as to what's going on to know I wouldn't support Bush at all, but we all know that's not going to change anyone's mind. People like RWR will just flame and make assumptions about me anyway, so there's no point.
And in relation to the original topic, I'm not worried about Bush but the fact that the Senate (and soon probably the other branches of government) is steering over to the Republican side; apparently the concept of balance has no recognition when it comes to the government.
Mon Nov 22 2004 6:24 PM
evil conservative666:
Paul,
65,000 people died in Vietnam. 1000 people have died in Iraq. You probably need to stop making that comparison if you want people to take you seriously.
Mon Nov 22 2004 6:25 PM
It's unconscionable, evilconservative, how you don't even consider civilians to be people.
Mon Nov 22 2004 6:28 PM
Paul:
Well, he is evil after all.
Mon Nov 22 2004 6:34 PM
Paul:
evil,
In the Vietnam War, 58,226 were classified as killed in action of missing in action.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnam_war#Casualties
This is a figure which was arrived at by the end of the war. We are not at the end of the Iraq War, nor is there a reason to expect it will end in the next few years. As long as American troops remain in Iraq, they will continue to die. Simple as that.
Iraqis, and particularly Sunnis, will not live under American rule. Nor will they live under a government which is sanctioned by America.
Also, Shiites will not live under Sunni rule, and Sunnis won't live under Shiite rule. Also, the Turks are opposed to any partition of Iraq which would result in an independent Kurdish state. Starting to get a headache?
If we are not willing to become Saddam Hussein, then we will lose this war. If we become Saddam Hussein, then we will have lost the war for other reasons.
Remember what the secondmost reason for invading Iraq was (after WMD's)? It was to bring freedom to the Iraqi people. The only way we can bring them freedom is to kill them in large numbers.
Do you have any trouble digesting this? I know I do.
Mon Nov 22 2004 6:56 PM
Aaron:
Please, let's not regurgitate the whole Iraq v. Viet Nam arguement... It's old. The election is over. We're in Iraq for the long haul (as we would been for the most part if Kerry had been elected as well).
Let's please try to focus on how to support our men/women in uniform as they help Iraqis set up a country for themselves. History will dictate how we view this battle in Iraq in the broader context of the War on Terrorism. We just need to focus on how to win move on. Please?
Mon Nov 22 2004 8:03 PM
Aaron:
*win and move on. Please?
Mon Nov 22 2004 8:04 PM
Paul:
I think Iraq is doomed, and there's nothing anyone can do about it. I don't see how you can move on from that. If we withdraw the troops, we can move on. Other than that, we're stuck in Vietnam all over again. I'm not bringing up Vietnam because it gives me pleasure. I'm bringing up Vietnam because that's where we are today, like it or not.
We can't defeat the guerilla movement in Iraq without becoming Saddam Hussein. If we become Saddam Hussein, then all the bullshit about bringing freedom to the Iraqi people starts to develop a really serious odor.
Mon Nov 22 2004 10:46 PM
evil conservative666:
There are 3000 civilian casualties that don't get too much attention in this argument. Why don't we start there?
Mon Nov 22 2004 11:27 PM
dhermesc:
So Paul, we cut and run and leave the Iraqi people at the mercy of the same thugs that have already killed hundreds of thousands of their own citizens? Aren't the liberals arguing about how the US is supposed to have a moral conscious to the world? Yet you propose that we look only to our limited self interest and the rest of the world can go straight to Hell.
As for the thousand deaths, lets put that in perspective. This holiday weekend more people then that will die on US roadways for the sake of easy commuting. Those are men, women and children who will die in the most horrible fashion. About ten times that many will suffer injuries with some requiring years of treatment with no hope of ever living a "normal" life again. All those casualties will occur in a 4 day period. Damn near make you want to take the taxi ride that Jim describes above instead of driving on a US highway.
Tue Nov 23 2004 6:11 AM
Tom from Madison:
The issue is not stupidity of middle Americans. It's ignorance. It's very easy to support the abstraction of a war when you don't see images of dead babies and when you don't even get body counts of dead Iraqi civilians, or when you don't hear about tens of thousands of soldiers coming home with permanent disabilities.
It takes effort to find out how many civilian deaths there have been. This stuff is not reported on the nightly news.
The people who "don't get it" are those who voted for Bush when they either 1) didn't have all the facts or 2) were in denial of the facts that were staring them in the face.
US military action has killed tens of thousands of Iraqis in the last year. As in Viet Nam, officially ignoring the killing of Iraqi civilians will likely prove to be a bad way to demonstrate that we have the Iraqi's best interests at heart.
Tue Nov 23 2004 7:04 AM
Right Wing Robby:
Tom,
You're a fool. Where do you think the far majority of Soldiers in our armed forced come from? I'll give you a clue since you dont have one. Its not the North East or California.
Ignorance is something you seem to have a handle on.
Tue Nov 23 2004 7:53 AM
Dave E.:
Queenie says you're a fool and don't have a clue, Tom.
That's what you get when you try to engage the scum of the earth in a discussion. What they don't have a handle on is perspective and there's nothing anybody can do to impart this on them through sheer willpower. Their brains are hardwired and unsalvageable. Like picking at a scab, even if you feel compelled to discuss common sense with them, attempting to do so really only makes things worse. If you want to disengage, you're gonna have to either give up or reduce yourself to insulting their machismo and/or foolish pride in some way. Obviously, I have no problem doing this (e.g. RWR is a flippant queenie now).
Fact is, unless you're a masochist, these worthless knuckle-draggers that use up perfectly good oxygen thrive on provoking well-intentioned and compassionate people that attempt to speak to them. Don't do it. They're the Ron Artests of the internet.
Nice reading you again, queenie! You flippant son of a bitch! Now get back out there and get busy hatin'!
Tue Nov 23 2004 8:15 AM
Tom from Madison:
RWR:
You act as though there were a public outcry to go to war in Iraq. There never was. As a highly effective politician, Bush sold it based on a lot of ginned-up intelligence and the fallacious claim that we were somehow in danger of being attacked by Iraq. NOW he's claiming we're doing a wonderful thing for the Iraqi people. We're not helping the people we're killing very much, are we?
The fools are those who won't look at the facts and continue to believe Bush's shifting reasons for waging this war.
By the way there have been plenty of dead and maimed soldiers who came from Wisconsin as well. Enrlisted military people have the right to expect that they won't be put in harm's way based on faulty intelligence. Using National Guard & Reserve personnel is even more irresponsible. Putting contracting personnel in harms way, where they can get beheaded, is even more fool-hardy!
There's a lot of blood on Bush's hands. Why don't you hold HIM responsible?
Tue Nov 23 2004 8:29 AM
Right Wing Robby:
Jim,
I owe you an apology. You once spoke about recieving hate mail and how much you liked getting it. My first thought was that you were crazy and how could anyone actually enjoy so much negative attention. Well Sir, I think I understand what you mean now. It really is a wonderful thing and I look forward to more.
Keep it coming!
Tue Nov 23 2004 8:32 AM
Tom from Madison:
Dave E:
thanks for the kind words. You're right of course. The true believers on the right are incorrigible. However, other more open-minded readers might be watching.
As far as my motivation to engage the conservatives, it's really a great way to improve you're writing skills and clear your conscience simultaneously!
Tue Nov 23 2004 8:37 AM
Anonymous:
For fifty years, America's foreign policy failures have not been problems of "national dialogue" or "preventative" action or the national psyche. There is one simple problem: Democrats can't handle foreign policy. You could almost forgive the Democrats for their spectacular record of failure in foreign policy. But then they have the audacity to cite their own derelict handling of the military to argue that it is always a fool's errand to deploy troops in defense of the nation. Remember Vietnam!"
Ann Coulter
Tue Nov 23 2004 8:43 AM
Tom from Madison:
Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Blessed are the meek: for they shall posses the land.
Blessed are they who mourn: for they shall be comforted.
Blessed are they that hunger and thirst after justice: for they shall have their fill.
Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.
Blessed are the clean of heart: for they shall see God.
Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.
Blessed are they that suffer persecution for justice' sake, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.Jesus
Tue Nov 23 2004 8:53 AM
Right Wing Robby:
Tom,
Expect a call from the ACLU. Im offended.
Tue Nov 23 2004 8:56 AM
Tom from Madison:
RWR:
I'm a member. We'll bring it up at the next meeting!
Tue Nov 23 2004 8:58 AM
Right Wing Robby:
Green is my favorite color. From the grass to the leaves on the trees, I love it. Its very soothing and pleasing to look at. If green isnt your favorite color, you're ignorant and unwilling to accept the truth. It is clear you dont know the virtues of the color green or you would agree with me. Although to use the word agree is wrong, as green IS the best color and there can be no debate. So all you purple, red and white lovers out there, wake up. You must live in caves where green is not an option for cave drawings.
I have found that open-minded people agree with me that green is the best color and its the ignorant closed minded people who think otherwise.
While it is pointless to come here and argue what can only be considered an infallible truth, there may be a few open minded people who will come to realize the truth. Green is the best color you ignorant foolish morons.You are lucky however. Lucky to have me out here to watch over you ignorant fools. While you may like other colors, I will make sure and take care of you less then able types. After all, there can be no other reason for you not to like green other then you being completely incompetent. No, youre not welcome in my club, but my club will be painting your houses and your fences. Can you guess which color?
Some people never learn.
Tue Nov 23 2004 10:07 AM
Paul:
evil,
"There are 3000 civilian casualties that don't get too much attention in this argument. Why don't we start there?"
That's a separate topic. We're talking about Iraq, not Bin Laden.
Tue Nov 23 2004 11:40 AM
Tom from Madison:
I prefer not to proselytize, but to explain why I think what I think. I trust that more perfect knowledge will benefit everyone.
It is a great thing to understand other points of view and to be glad they are out there even as you choose not to share them.
I am deeply suspicious of those who don't disclose all the facts or worse, don't even want to learn the facts. I am more suspicious when these same people try to convince others. I am most suspcious when war breaks out and people are fighting and dieing based on lies or mis-information.
Tue Nov 23 2004 11:47 AM
Anonymous:
wrong wing,
"Where do you think the far majority of Soldiers in our armed forced come from? I'll give you a clue since you dont have one. Its not the North East or California."
Where do they come from then?
Tue Nov 23 2004 2:21 PM
Cici:
I like green... as in the Green Party.
HAR HAR, horrible joke, I know. You'll probably never hear another one out of me, but I just couldn't help myself.
Tue Nov 23 2004 5:04 PM
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