From Jim Gilliam's blog archives
Terrorists are trolls

November 4, 2004 1:14 PM

I'm going to make a really offensive analogy -- terrorists are trolls. If you get mad at them and respond, you have done exactly what they wanted you to do, because all they seek is attention. The only way to defeat the trolls is to ignore them. Same with terrorists. If you give them too much attention, it just emboldens them.

I've got a blog and occasionally trolls come around trying to annoy people and get attention. According to the Bush doctrine, what I should do in response is hack some random gardening blogspot blog with almost no traffic, delete a bunch of the posts, wait for the trolls to come and start yelling at me, while telling my readers that the gardening blog is a haven for right-wing trolls. Every day I post something about the evil right-wing gardening freaks. Then I spend inordinate amounts of my time yelling at the trolls on the gardening blog, trying to convince them that Social Security is actually a good thing.

But meanwhile, since I'm spending so much time fighting the trolls on the gardening blog, my own blog is neglected. I never have time to post anymore, and all of my old posts fill up with spam comments. Pretty soon, jimlog is looking pretty slummy and I don't have any time to fix it because I sure as hell can't let the trolls win -- I will look like such a fool!

So I start begging my fellow leftie bloggers to come help me fight the trolls. But no one comes to help me out because they see what a mess it is and don't want to waste their time and let their own blogs deteriorate. Eventually the trolls become so numerous and powerful, the only thing I can do is surrender and stop fighting. Then I've got to start the long process of fixing everything that was messed up in the meantime on my own blog, assuming a troll hasn't already gotten revenge by hacking my blog and convincing my readers they really need to give segregation a second chance. But now there are so many trolls... soooo many trolls.

Or I can just ignore the trolls, try to make it harder for them to annoy people in the future, maybe ban a few IP addresses, and eventually they will dwindle to the point of being a minor nuisance.

It is impossible to stamp out terrorism. Impossible. Will never happen, ever. The very fact that we've gotten to the point where the primary thing everyone is worried about is terrorism, means we've won. Now the goal is to minimize, not exterminate, terrorism.

More from the archive in Terrorism.

Terrorists are trolls (11.04.2004)

Next Entry: Abortions are up under George W. Bush (11.08.2004)
Previous Entry: California -- stem cell mecca (11.04.2004)

Read the 46 comments.

Right Wing Robby:

Go ahead and ban IP addy's of people who disagree. Watch what happens to the traffic on your site. The days of 30-40 comments will be gone, and so will the readers. You'll be left preaching to a choir, and a small one at that.

Heres the truth readers so listen up.

Drawing lines and pushing people away isn’t going to win anything. This is a true representation of the democratic party of the past. The Michael Moore wing of the party is going to die. Jim is in that party. In fact he is proud his movie is being distributed with Moores. The enemy likes Moore, and yet that gives Jim no pause. These days are over. Jim apparently thinks he is going to change America into Europe.

The positive vision of people like Obama are going to thrive. He stresses moral value and its application into law. He stresses a positive vision and its place in America. That gets people excited about the party and the country.

You people are all about anger and hate. You just want to trash the USA and its president. You don’t love your country, you despise it. You are embarrassed by it. You are so flawed and stubborn in your thinking it’s absolutely amazing.

Jim isn’t nearly as smart as he thinks, or I thought. Without missing a beat he started the same old tired attacks against religion and the war that got his party's collective butt kicked. It’s a dying ideology that will only be found on the most extreme left wing gutters, like this one.
And after the democrats restructure, it may not be found at all.

More importantly, it will never work.

I am a Republican, but I like the new Obama direction. Not because I agree with his ideology, but because it’s refreshing to hear an opposing point of view that have a positive outlook and a positive vision for the future. Its good to know should the left prevail in the future, it will be in good hands.

I see none of that here. This place is full of anger and hatred of, by and for America. Jim has flat out said he was embarrassed for this country and is over in Europe pointing that fact out with one hand, while collecting money from his anti American hate movies with the other.

Ban that.

Thu Nov 4 2004 1:50 PM


re right wing robby up above: some people need to brush up their reading and comprehension skills.

Thu Nov 4 2004 2:01 PM

Independent Jones:


I appreciate your passion, but I have to say that not liking the president doesn't mean you hate your country. I love my country, but I don't like Bush. He has a set of ideals that I don't subscribe to, but that doesn't mean my opinion means any less. You're getting dangerously close to saying "If you don't like it, you're wrong," which is a very, very bad position to have.

You can love your country and hate what your country is doing. This has happened many, many times in our history. If nobody ever had a problem with how things were or our leadership at times, then we would still be keeping slaves and not letting women vote. To be discouraged and disillusioned with your leadership does not make you any less patriotic. The idea that in order to love your country you have to tow the party line with no defiance is fascist.

I am not all about anger. I am not all about hate. I know many democrats who very disappointed about the election, and they are not about anger and they are not about hate.

if you think Jimbo is getting a bit extreme in his posts, that's fine. I, myself, would think it somewhat ridiculous to offer a community post and then censor it. I would also be inclined to think that would conflict with Jim's base ideals, at least I'd hope. However, regardless of what Jim is saying, don't let yourself fall into that trap of saying all of you are this or all of your are that. That will make you no better and I think you know that, as I believe you to be very intelligent, regardless of some of our conflicting beliefs.

My hope for this country is that we can find a balance between the extremes. Bush won the election by a little over half. That means almost a half wanted the other guy. That's pretty close. I just hope that the recent throng of "values" based movements don't thrust us backwards in terms of civil rights and progress in general.

Work is over. I'm going home.


Thu Nov 4 2004 2:05 PM

Red Ghost:

I've been feeling the need to say something, but what?

How is it that everything becomes a sides issue? What good does that do?

Something seems really mangled and misaligned. I think, perhaps, we need to get back to a simple education of how our system of governance works and what exactly is going on in our own neighborhoods.

Yes, this wonderful Blue State of California has decided to fund stem cell research. Such a positive, large step.

I was a poll worker for the first time. Our polling place was in a school auditorium and we had tours by elementary students. They all got to mark sample ballots and see the street roster. I stressed the importance of "our neighborhood" and informed them that we have to register before we can vote. Most of the kids wanted to see if their parents were registered. One amazing fourth-grader talked about the process as one would've expected him to talk about the Nintendo DS. He knew that "Maria Shriver's brother" was running in Santa Monica (several cities over and many precincts away) and that "voting is a good way for a voter to weigh in on the issues."

Yes, America has spoken. I don't think we should "misunderestimate" the voters opposed to this administration and its dealings. This IS a decisive win for this administration. It also feels like one large stamp of approval on the current administration's policies and strategies for how it garners and maintains support. The "it's time to heal" I think is a little premature. It's been two days and, let's face it, while we know the results we're not done counting. It's important that we allow the process to properly run its course. I honestly don't believe that George W. Bush is capable of "working together" or "uniting" this country. He has been unwilling to take responsibility for his actions, listen to dissenting points of view, admit his mistakes or even maintain a state of active awareness about how America actually lives. He has given of himself nothing.

There is no data, no sampling, no personal history of otherwise. None. His speeches are useless because his actions are so damaging and perverse. His words are hollow.

That said, I think the shift will come from the right. Once people don't have to be on the continual defense (of their man, of their ideas), I have faith that they'll start to question what's going on. Like churches that believe we have a responsibility to do God's work in the environment. That is an extremely positive thing.

In other words, Red States, go for it. Let's see where you take it.

Thu Nov 4 2004 2:12 PM

F. U.:

I think that Right Wing Robbie is right, no not really. I think that he epitomizes what is wrong with the country. Robbie, riddle me this, if we hate the U.S. so much, then why do us democrats wish our troops be free from harms way? Why do we fight for civil rights? Why do we care that the bum down the street has a decent wage and an opportunity to find and earn it? No, I think that quite on the contrary, it is you that hates the U.S. You preach your patriotism, while investing your money in multinational corporations. You preach your love for this country, all the while supporting a liar that is getting thousands of innocent people killed. Tick Tock, there is another person dead.

Indeed, you republican right-wingers are the one's that truly hate america. You are xenophobic, as witnessed by the election, as main centers of diversity voted for true enlightenment, the rest of the couped of nation voted for the guy who preaches hate, fear, and "misunderestimations."

You know, I love how republicans just assume that by their willingness to use military force, in some way they are patriotic. I love how people forget the lessons we learned from Vietnam, and how now republicans are all trying to set the record straight and settle old scores by asking pawns to fight their battles.

Thu Nov 4 2004 2:39 PM


"Go ahead and ban IP addy's of people who disagree. Watch what happens to the traffic on your site. The days of 30-40 comments will be gone, and so will the readers. You'll be left preaching to a choir, and a small one at that."

There is a difference between "people who disagree" and "trolls". "People who disagree" can either say they feel otherwise than someone else, or can produce facts backed up by data. Trolls use misinformation to incite a downward spiraling discussion.

If Jim meant what he said, and wants to ban trolls, I'm all for that, and you should be too. It will make for a discussion, not an irrelevant shouting match. If he plans to remove dissenting comments, well then you are right, this site would probably shrivel up.

Thu Nov 4 2004 2:52 PM

Wild Eyed Anarchist:

Agreed. If we wanted to hear what Trolls had to say (ie. unable to produce facts based on data, use misinformation) I'd turn on FoxNews.

Thu Nov 4 2004 2:55 PM

raging red:

Woohoo!! Jim finally takes on the trolls!

I realized a while back that the only way to deal with trolls is to, well, NOT deal with them. Yet as I said once before, just when I think I'm out, they pull me back in. It's hard, but I am really trying to ignore them now.

The trolls just like pissing people off. They get off on the heated arguments. They feed off of them. It's troll food.

So I'm going to piss them off too by wholeheartedly agreeing with the offensive analogy. Terrorists=trolls. They get enjoyment out of attacking people and making people angry. They have no regard for humanity.

So, I'm going to keep trying hard to simply ignore the trolls.

Thu Nov 4 2004 3:03 PM


I'm with you Jim. I'm with you on your crusade to get rid of all trolls.

Also, we need to change the democratic party. Let's start working on that.

Thu Nov 4 2004 3:16 PM

CA Girl:

Take on the Trolls Jim! They have enough outlets. Their hate and distorted perspective of the world is not worth the time of like-minded people who want the best for all humans!

Thu Nov 4 2004 3:26 PM

Wait a second people:

I think some of you are missing Jim's point entirely. What I think Jim is saying is that by responding to the trolls, you are giving them power. And Jim compares the trolls to terrorists. By acting impusively to their actions (invading Iraq), you are giving the terrorists power. Bush's terrorism policy is spreading more Anti-American semtiment in the Middle East.

I think people are missing the fact that Jim is saying what would happen if we used Bush's terrorism policy on trolls, figuratively speaking. He is saying that by giving the trolls so much attention, you are taking attention away from what is really the meaning of this site. Jim is saying that Bush has put so much emphasis on terrorism that he has ignored what needs to be done in America.

Jim is not talking about banning trolls, that would be the Bush terrorism policy as applied to trolls. What that means is that banning trolls would not stop them. They would find some way to continue trolling this site. Jim compares that to terrorism. Bush thinks that killing terrorists will stop them. My view is that killing terrorists can only do so much, when it is American foreign policies that are the root of their hatred. I am not siding with the terrorists at all by saying this. I am saying that it is important to understand the enemy and WHY they hate America and WHY they decide to do what they do.

And I believe Bush does not understand that. I hear that religious leaders in Iraq are pushing people to boycott the Iraq elections that Bush wants to take place. To stop terrorism, you have to get to the center of why they think the way they do and how we can stop their ideas. Killing some terrorists can only do so much. Some may die, but their ideas will continue to live on unless we understand them and do something about it. I see the war in Iraq doing the exact opposite.

I don't think I've worded all that as well as I should have, but I hope you understand.

Thu Nov 4 2004 4:06 PM


The sarcasm that is oozing from parts of Jim's post is being entirely missed by some of you, especially Mr. Right Wing Robby. Hello, meet Mr. Analogy, he's in the dictionary. In fact, the first line of his post is "I'm going to make a really offensive ANALOGY."

I'd like to see the Bush administration actually give the definition to "terrorism."

I, for one, am not one of the people who draw lines. It's people like Robby who are by saying "we" hate our country, "we" don't support our president (which I don't anyway), by retorting to an ANALOGY with insults. When you start categorizing hundreds or thousands of people as "we" or "they", you're already drawing lines. And I'm kind of like Independent Jones, it's not like I think Jim or Michael Moore is ALWAYS right, but they're not completely WRONG either and some truths need to be told. My problem isn't with Republicans, but PEOPLE who aren't getting the facts but claim they know what's going on or what's "right." Hell, I don't like most Democrats either.

So anyway, for future reference, instead of attacking a whole entire group of people, it'd be more constructive to attack the individual you have a problem with.

Thu Nov 4 2004 5:19 PM

Right Wing Robby:

I am attacking a whole group of people. The Michael Moore blame America first crowd. Jim is in that group.

And instead of looking up the word "analogy", try looking up the word "offensive."

Thu Nov 4 2004 7:16 PM

Wait a second people:

Robby: I don't think it's wrong to blame America it's wrong.

Thu Nov 4 2004 7:32 PM


Hey Jim I noticed you took down the part about deticating you life to getting GWB out of office. So whats the plan now? Same thing? Michael Moore 2, 2.

I hope you guys keep it up with those sites and people like that. You will just keep helping republicans get elected to office. So in some way I have to say thank for all your hard work Jim. Because of it you helped push the middle independants to the repulican side and Bush was re-elected. Capitalism and personal responsibility sells, remember that.

Thu Nov 4 2004 8:29 PM

Jim Gilliam:

FYI... when I said ban a few IP addresses, I was not referring to RWR or others of those that are engaged in an honest discussion. I'm very committed to keeping this a free flow of ideas.

I was referring to the stupid "John Kerry sucks my big fat ass" posted five times in one thread type of things.

Thu Nov 4 2004 10:24 PM

Jim Gilliam:

Dave: I will put something up on the left shortly. I am committed to continuing on, I'm just trying to figure out the right words.

re: trolls. I was trying to make a point about terrorism not trolls!! The banning a few IP addresses was supposed to equate with killing a couple of terrorists after they've committed some terrorism. Not a shift in the Jim doctrine of comment policing.

Thu Nov 4 2004 10:33 PM

Dave E.:

2 : giving painful or unpleasant sensations: nauseous, obnoxious: (see also any right wing robby post)

And it appears I have my very own bizarro dave now.

Of course, this response is commensurate with the level of discourse offered from those with traditionally opposing views. It's like a bigoted monkey is just pounding on a keyboard (my apologies to offending the simian community).

Thu Nov 4 2004 11:04 PM


Oh. My. God. I cannot believe how many people up near the top of this thread missed Gilliam's fairly blatent 96pt headline point.

It's an analogy you gimps. Terrorists == trolls. Are you always this egocentric, or is it just that irony escapes your orbit out there on the planet you inhabit?


Fri Nov 5 2004 6:55 AM


"I've got a blog and occasionally trolls come around trying to annoy people and get attention"

Of course one glaring deficiency in your analogy is the difference in goals vis a vis terrorists vs. trolls.

Trolls annoy...terrorists kill.

If these analogous "trolls" were hell-bent on causing not annoyance and hurt feelings but smoldering and savage "kill-them-all!" destruction to you and your blog and anybody who posts on your blog and even anybody who merely lives in a socuiety that permits blogs... do you think that then you might consider them to be more than a nuisance?
Do you think if that were the case that you might have a different attitude than "Ignore them and maybe they'll go away"?

Fri Nov 5 2004 7:38 AM

Independent Jones:


I'll bet you take every word of the Bible literally, too.

So much agression. So much disgust. You're obviously not here to change anybody's mind. You're just here to hate.

Fri Nov 5 2004 9:54 AM

Dave E.:

IJ is right.

It's clinically proven that Textualists are unable to think for themselves. They carry around a cheat sheet reminding them when to breath in and breath out.

"Vis-a-vis". That made me laugh. It's a fine line between using the appropriate word and just sounding like a pedantic sycophant.

Fri Nov 5 2004 10:31 AM

Right Wing Robby:

Attacking words choices now?

Pay no mind to them tomaig. You fought the good fight and won big this week. We won in every possible way in this election. You thoughts and opinion have been justified.

I wonder how Rehnquist is doing?

Fri Nov 5 2004 10:47 AM


Haha, offensive? You should look at what you wrote. You could've expressed it in a more constructive fashion, but you resorted to insulting people rather than giving evidence to support your statements. And who said you had to read this stuff in the first place? If you don't like it, skip over it. Doesn't make you a better person to come back and tell people they're wrong for thinking one way when you're guilty of doing the same. You're talking about other people hating? You're just as guilty of that as well.

I don't hate you, I just hate what you're doing. I hope you're not religious, because it's people like you that repell other people from coming to Christ. And guess what, I'M CHRISTIAN. But unlike most, my relationship with God is based on FAITH, not RELIGION. And if you think there isn't a difference, there's already a problem.

Have you ever asked anyone from El Salvador, or Brazil, or Guatemala what they think of America? It's not pretty, and why? Because of things that this country's government has done. And not even the current one either. Just because I don't support the president doesn't mean I don't love this country. I have faith in the people, which is what a democracy is supposed to be about, THE PEOPLE.

Fri Nov 5 2004 11:47 AM


I think what you meant, O Towering Intellect, was "breathE in and breathE out" not "breath"

A fine line, also, between sounding erudite and sounding like a complete non-spelling public-skool moron, huh?

Fri Nov 5 2004 12:00 PM

Gina Bennett:

Here's the difference between this site and right-wing sites. The "trolls" can speak their minds too. I signed onto a right-wing blog and after going through the security process, I posted. Well, I posted something to the effect that if Rush is so in favor of the sancity of marriage why has he been married and divorced three times? I believed that was a thought provoking question. Well, the moderator quickly erased my post and revoked my account. You see any dissent to the right wing is dangerous. Especially if you speak the truth. As long as I was saying Rush is right, Hanity is so handsome and fair, all was well. But, if I diverged from the ideology one iota well then I was to be silenced. Do you get it?

Fri Nov 5 2004 12:15 PM

Independent Jones:

Now, Robby, I'm getting disappointed here. You and I definately have our differences as many of us do, but I am surprised at your nastiness. You've always spoken intelligently and with confident purpose, rather than with venom and loathing. I know you have a different idealogy than me, but I thought you were above a certain schoolyard mentality. I may not like what you say, heck, I may not even like you, but I respect your convictions. This whole notion of winning the fight makes me sad. It's like brother vs. brother. Republican or Democrat or everything in the middle, we're all still Americans. We all still want the best for this country and her people. Just because we disagree doesn't mean any of us are wrong. 51% to 48% is a pretty even division. I hope it doesn't have to continue to be an Us vs. Them mentality in this country. Each side is so greedy for their agenda. I wish we could have a system of "let the left have their beliefs, and thr right have theirs, but let's govern from the middle." The all or nothing fight that rages on serves to worsen the division. All things in excess are dangerous. Moderation is the key.

I'm sure this was rambling, but I just don't understand the nastiness from everyone, not just the right.

Maybe we're all hopeless.

Fri Nov 5 2004 12:35 PM

Right Wing Robby:


Didn’t you just get done telling me about “categorizing” people?
And then you say….

"Its people like me....."

Here’s a newsflash for you. I’m not religious and don’t care if people find Christ. Nice stereo-type you tried to lay on me though. Anything else you want to tell me about "my people?" I guess you think all Reps are religious. Sounds like you are "categorizing" people Cici.

Save your sermon for your Church group, I sleep late on Sunday.


My beliefs remain the same. My convictions are stronger. I was respectful of the events that happened. Look at the posts in that thread from the left. Attack, attack, attack.

Okay, they are upset they lost. That is obvious.
Then Jim comes out with the Battle lines have been drawn post. More nastiness.

A few posts up, Jim accuses the Red states of stripping rights followed by explaining the blue states are all about saving life. More line drawing. More "categorizing" people based on state color.

Until we arrive at this thread. The self admitted "offensive terrorist analogy". Apparently poorly written since everyone seemed to "miss the point". I still don’t know what it is, but I don’t like the analogy at all because seemingly he is speaking about people such as me. Others believe so too as represented by their comments. Jim clarified later.

This is how we arrive at where we are today and you being disappointed in my tone. If your concern is over division, look carefully without your blue glasses on where it’s coming from. I can admit my tone is sharpened, but when in Rome.......

Fri Nov 5 2004 1:31 PM

Jim Gilliam:

Your points about this not necessarily being the best strategy to win electoral points is quite a valid argument. But I'm no flip-flopper, and I'm certainly not going to change what I stand for to win an election.

The Christian fundamentalists are destroying America. There's your group. They are the enemy. Battle lines drawn. There's a lot of work to do.

Fri Nov 5 2004 3:00 PM

Wild Eyed Anarchist:

From Nov. 4 Daily Mirror:


Nov 4 2004


THEY say that in life you get what you deserve. Well,
today America has deservedly got a lawless cowboy to
lead them further into carnage and isolation and the
unreserved contempt of most of the rest of the world.

This once-great country has pulled up its drawbridge
for another four years and stuck a finger up to the
billions of us forced to share the same air. And in
doing so, it has shown itself to be a fearful,
backward-looking and very small nation.

This should have been the day when Americans finally
answered their critics by raising their eyes from
their own sidewalks and looking outward towards the
rest of humanity.

And for a few hours early yesterday, when the exit
polls predicted a John Kerry victory, it seemed they

But then the horrible, inevitable truth hit home. They
had somehow managed to re-elect the most devious,
blinkered and reckless leader ever put before them.
The Yellow Rogue of Texas.

A self-serving, dim-witted, draft-dodging, gung-ho
little rich boy, whose idea of courage is to yell: "I
feel good," as he unleashes an awesome fury which
slaughters 100,000 innocents for no other reason
than greed and vanity.

A dangerous chameleon, his charming exterior provides
cover for a power-crazed clique of Doctor
Strangelove's whose goal is to increase America's grip
on the world's economies and natural resources.

And in foolishly backing him, Americans have given the
go-ahead for more unilateral pre-emptive strikes, more
world instability and most probably another 9/11.

Why else do you think bin Laden was so happy to scare
them to the polls, then made no attempt to scupper the

There's only one headline in town today, folks: "It
Was Osama Wot Won It."

And soon he'll expect pay-back. Well, he can't allow
Bush to have his folks whoopin' and a-hollerin'
without his own getting a share of the fun, can he?

Heck, guys, I hope you're feeling proud today.

To the tens of millions who voted for John Kerry, my

To the overwhelming majority of you who didn't, I
simply ask: Have you learnt nothing? Do you despise
your own image that much?

Do you care so little about the world beyond your
shores? How could you do this to yourselves?

How appalling must one man's record at home and abroad
be for you to reject him?

Kerry wasn't the best presidential candidate the
Democrats have ever fielded (and he did deserve a
kicking for that "reporting for doo-dee"
moment), but at least he understood the complexity of
the world outside America, and domestic disgraces like
the 45 million of his fellow citizens without health

He would have done something to make that country
fairer and re-connected it with the wider world.

Instead America chose a man without morals or vision.
An economic incompetent who inherited a $2 billion
surplus from Clinton, gave it in tax cuts to the rich
and turned the US into the world's largest debtor

A man who sneers at the rights of other nations. Who
has with drawn from international treaties on the
environment and chemical weapons.

A man who flattens sovereign states then hands the
rebuilding contracts to his own billionaire party

A man who promotes trade protectionism and backs an
Israeli government which continually flouts UN

America has chosen a menacingly immature buffoon who
likened the pursuit of the 9/11 terrorists to a Wild
West, Wanted Dead or Alive man-hunt and, during the
Afghanistan war, kept a baseball scorecard in his
drawer, notching up hits when news came through of
enemy deaths.

A RADICAL Christian fanatic who decided the world was
made up of the forces of good and evil, who invented a
war on terror, and thus as author of it, believed he
had the right to set the rules of engagement.

Which translates to telling his troops to do what the
hell they want to the bad guys. As he has at
Guantanamo, Abu Ghraib and countless towns
across Iraq.

You have to feel sorry for the millions of Yanks in
the big cities like New York, Washington, Boston,
Chicago, Los Angeles and San Francisco who voted to
kick him out.

These are the sophisticated side of the electorate who
recognise a gibbon when they see one.

As for the ones who put him in, across the Bible Belt
and the South, us outsiders can only feel pity.

Were I a Kerry voter, though, I'd feel deep anger, not
only at them returning Bush to power, but for allowing
the outside world to lump us all into the same
category of moronic muppets.

The self-righteous, gun-totin', military lovin',
sister marryin', abortion-hatin', gay-loathin',
foreigner-despisin', non-passport ownin'
red-necks, who believe God gave America the biggest
dick in the world so it could urinate on the rest of
us and make their land "free and strong".

You probably won't be surprised to learn of would-be
Oklahoma Republican Senator Tom Coburn who, on
Tuesday, promised to ban abortion and execute any
doctors who carried them out.

He also told voters that lesbianism is so rampant in
the state's schools that girls were being sent to
toilets on their own. Not that any principal could be
found to back him up.

These are the people who hijack the word patriot and
liken compassion to child-molesting. And they are
unknowingly bin Laden's chief recruiting

Al-Qaeda's existence is fuelled by the outpourings of
America's Christian right. Bush is its
commander-in-chief. And he and bin Laden need each
other to survive.

Both need to play Lex Luther to each others' Superman
with their own fanatical people. Maybe that's why the
mightiest military machine ever assembled has failed
to catch the world's most wanted man.

Or is the reason simply that America is incompetent?
That behind the bluff they are frightened and
clueless, which is why they've stayed with the devil
they know.

VISITORS from another planet watching this election
would surely not credit the amateurism.

The queues for hours to register a tick; the 17,000
lawyers needed to ensure there was no cheating; the
$1.2bn wasted by parties trying to discredit the
enemy; the allegations of fraud, intimidation and
tricks; the exit polls which were so wildly
inaccurate; an Electoral College voting system that
makes the Eurovision Song Contest look like a beacon
of democracy and efficiency; and the delays and the
wrangles in announcing the victor.

Yet America would have us believe theirs is the finest
democracy in the world. Well, that fine democracy has
got the man it deserved. George W Bush.

But is America safer today without Kerry in charge? A
man who overnight would have given back to the UN some
credibility and authority. Who would have worked out
the best way to undo the Iraq mess without fear
of losing face.

Instead, the questions facing America today are - how
many more thousands of their sons will die as Iraq
descends into a new Vietnam? And how many more
Vietnams are on the horizon now they have given Bush
the mandate to go after Iran, Syria, North Korea or

Today is a sad day for the world, but it's even sadder
for the millions of intelligent Americans embarrassed
by a gung-ho leader and backed by a banal electorate,
half of whom still believe Saddam Hussein was behind

Yanks had the chance to show the world a better way
this week, instead they made a thuggish cowboy ride
off into the sunset bathed in glory.

And in doing so it brought Armageddon that little bit
closer and re-christened their beloved nation The Home
Of The Knave and the Land Of The Freak.

God Help America.

Fri Nov 5 2004 3:11 PM

Dave E.:

You shouldn't blame American schools, tomaig. That is unpatriotic and unbecoming of those with moral values. You voted for Kerry, didn't you, you America-hater. Terrorists hate America for its freedom and tomaig hates America for its public schools. Guess're in the axis now, buddy.

Particularly because you seem to be a textualist, I understand why a misspelling could really cast doubt on the whole "thinking" problem you'd encounter. For you, it's probably like when you try to unlock a car door for someone that pulls the handle up too soon. You enter that parallel dimension where time stands still and no one knows what to do, frozen and staring at each other like slack-jawed fools.

So. My apologies for not being excruciatingly clear with the instructions for your breathing card. I can imagine the stress it must've caused.

And lighten up. There's a certain nobility in falling on the sword to supply the group with some the utilitarian sense, anyway. So thanks for that.

Back to the thread. I think Jim hits the mark here, and I've always been extremely distrusting of the evangelical movement. I've been told explicitly I was going to hell because I was Catholic. I laughed and dismissed the statement as ridiculous, but I remember the absolute belief in the person's demeanor, believing it was her duty to save me. There isn't this idea of "let people practice their own faith" with evangelicals. I'm fairly certain it's a fundamental tenet in the belief system to evangelize the world (please correct me if I'm wrong, anyone).

And with the type of influence they've procured in American government, it should give anyone pause and understand the need to maybe scrutinize Bush a little more as we go forward.

I know what Jim means when he says there's a lot of work to do.

Fri Nov 5 2004 3:51 PM

Mike of the Great White North:

Evangelicals scare the (*&% out of me. No it's true. And personally in my opinion, i think they should all be gassed. Now before anyone starts throwing Hitlerian comments at me understand this.

I made the exact same comment about about 4 years ago about fanatical Islamists after 9-11. I figure if anyone anyone is willing to kill a bunch of people just to talk to Allah and be with 72 virgins cuz they weren't gettin none here, we'll golly, i'd rather they just went out into the desert and blew themselves up out in the open and leave the rest of us out of it.

So why should i not level the same argument against of backward thinking, medievalist trogladites who await the 'Rapture'. These ultra bible belt fascists are awaiting the coming of christ so he can wash the planet in the blood of non believers and take up to heaven those accept jesus christ as their saviour. personally i don't care what it is that they believe in.. i care that they believe that day is coming soon and they are putting into place people in power with the ability to unleash armageddon with their mindless war policies and aggressive overtures. They believe so passionatly about remaking the middle east into Greater Israel, for the Jews must be the major populace from the nile to the euphrates before the coming of Christs return. (of course any jew who doesn't convert to christianity at the end will die).. so they put pressure on the government to support Israel's repressive policies of occupation and expansionism with American tax dollars to the obsene sum of some 4 billion a year. And why?

Why all this from people who are so unable to think? taking bible versus literally word for word from a bygone era not meant for this time. they take the most obscure parables and versus and claim them in HIS name when they avoid the one commandment that was most important.. to do unto others as you would have done unto you!

Im through with trying to be tolerant of intolerant people. Im through trying to deal with people whom put blind faith and prophecy ahead of incontravertable facts. They're as fanatical and bloodthirsty as any terrorist on the other side of the world, so they should deserve no less.

Fri Nov 5 2004 6:47 PM


"Here’s a newsflash for you. I’m not religious and don’t care if people find Christ."

That's fine. Thank you for clarifying that for me, and I do mean that. At least I can admit that your views aren't based upon religion, which is probably better than many Republicans who are religious.

And as Jim said... "The Christian fundamentalists are destroying America. There's your group." There's no denying though, that a good number of Republicans are these Christian fundamentalists. Bush is one of course, and supposedly a lot of his actions come from his conversations with God. Do you support that aspect?

And I'm with Independent Jones pretty much. But it is apparent here that lines have been drawn. It's just a matter of whether or not these people standing behind the lines can be willing to open their minds and step out of their "red" or "blue" states.

Also, Wild Eye Anarchist provided a nice example of what other countries think of the United States. Lovely, isn't it?

Fri Nov 5 2004 7:40 PM

Right Wing Robby:

That article says that we gave the go ahead for another 9/11 and that Bush invented the war on terror.

Do you believe that Cici?

One of the reasons I voted for Bush was because I didnt want a President who would adjust American policy to try and satisfy people like him.

The answer to your Question:
Bush never said he had conversations with God that I know of unless your referring to prayer.
But I wouldnt classify that as a conversation.

I havent seen him do anything based on your assumption. If you think Iraq was that, I strongly disagree. But rehashing the WMD arguement and the strong UN agreement of their exsistence is an old arguement I'd rather not engage in again for the 153rd time.

But here is a question for you that will clarify it. When you found out I am not firm in any faith, you expressed that my opinion was somehow more valid. Cici, my position didnt change and my belief didnt change.

You are showing me that you are making an assumption of people based on their faith without knowing anything else about them.

By that measure should I assume the same of you? You have flaunted your faith more than I have ever seen on this site. If I made the same assumptions about you, that you made about me, wouldnt I be way off base?

And should I adjust my respect for your arguement because of your faith? Is your opinion less valid because of your faith?

I dont think it is Cici. And because Bush has faith, it doesnt change my opinion of the Iraq war.


Fri Nov 5 2004 9:04 PM

Dave E.:

Calling the WMD argument old and overused, eh? Is that just because the truth is too inconvenient?
So now you guys aren't even dignifying the argument for which American soldiers continue to die at a rate that increases monthly since our 'mission was accomplished'? That's just disrespectful of our troops. That's unamerican, RWR. America hater.

Guess're in the axis now too, buddy.

OK. Seriously. In my opinion, that is just an incredible misstatement, RWR. One that finallly recharacterizes the American military as just a bunch of policy hand puppets, as they have become under the Bush administration. Our kids shouldn't die for a hunch on how to reconstruct the Middle East against its will.

The whole Moral Values electorate surprise and how it relates to the greater War on Terror is starting to flesh out, right before our eyes.

Religion is the ultimate unprovable, irrefutable "because I just believe" argument no one can disprove or artificially remove from any individual. That's noble, but...integrate that into control of the Executive branch of the US government and start meddling in geopolitical politics, and Iraq is what you get. Afghanistan, good. Iraq, "'s bad! It wasn't prudent at that juncture!" Unfortunately, not like father.

Oh well. We're there now, so we gotta do it right. If you ask me, I would say send about 200,000 more troops (even though it's about 1 1/2 years too late). What a complete half-ass job, entirely at the expense of those we sent. Again, I'm a vet, and I can understand the coded quotes from the soldiers put in such a compromising position.

I think the overriding issue here amongst pragmatic people is the fear of a radical dogma taking control of our foreign policy. Discounting all of this As an American citizen, I don't care what the F you believe in, just don't: 1) lie to me, and 2) morph our country's foreign policy into your radical future view.

I reiterate: people who believe the majority of the US and world population is predetermined to burn in hell are at the control column here. If I'm the only person that takes issue with that, I must have taken some sorta crazy pill. If moderate GOP folk are willing to lock-step behind that veiled lunacy because of a well-crafted and well-marketed Moral Values wrapper, then God help us.

I hate to be a quote thrower, but this seems apropos (tomaig would like that word):

"My country is the world, and my religion is to do good" - Thomas Paine

Focus, people...FOCUS!

Fri Nov 5 2004 10:28 PM

Mike of the Great White North:

Dave E:

FINALLY!!!! you dont understand how relieved i am that someone other than me just wont let the WMD issue die. after scaring americans half to death with visions of saddam passing off nukes to osama to unleash mushroom clouds over major US cities (to the eventual weapons programmes, to intentions to produce weapons, to liberating Iraqi's from Abu Graibs, etc....)

It unnerved me to no end to hear right wingers totally villify all persons who did not relent to their absolute intelligence and to slander and character assasinate anyone who spoke out about Iraq's inability to do such things. The only reason the war came about was WMD. If Bush went to congress, the UN, the US people and said 'Saddam is a bastard to his own people, so we must go to war!' does anyone in their right mind believe they'd be there right now?

But they got what they needed and now they can backpeddle and use rhetoric to worm their way out. They make the justification of liberation (which is not going to happen) as reason for war and any talk of pulling troops out of this illegal and corparate war is considered treason. 'Yeah we (*&%ed up but now we gotta stay the course, blah blah blah.' Dont reward stupidity with more time. It's not acquiesing to terrorism by pulling out of Iraq... it's correcting a mistake brought about by people who had no clue to begin with. You don't reward failure and stupidity with another mandate. If Bush and his administration were stockbrokers, then the correct Iraq analogy is, they're trying to sell you Bre-X stock at it's previous peak value today. Then when you call and ask why your stock is worth 2 cents when you paid 50 bucks a share they say, 'well there wasn't any gold in the mountain but we did drill some nice holes so its all worth it in the end right?'

And on the note of biblical chest thumpers. What happened to the true american spirit. The founding fathers built such a wonderful country, constitution and rule of law for reasons of avoiding issues of dictatorship, tyranny, and faith based rule. They wanted power to the people because they understood that power in one man is too much and corrupts, and creates Kings and tyrants. They opposed big government that serves itself instead of the people. They made sure rule of LAW, not GOD(any god) was to be followed, and that all men were created equal and had certain inailaible human rights guaranteed under the constitution. Seperation of church and state is indeed neccessary to prevent moral/spiritual righteousness from overbearing those not of the same faith. The founding fathers knew all this too well, and all the patriotic rhetoric from the ultra-right is subverting everything they designed. They're rolling in their graves.

And as a Canadian, it disgusts me that I understand what it should be to be American than alot of people who call themselves proud americans when they're really just ignorant of the past, present and future.

Sat Nov 6 2004 1:13 AM

Right Wing Robby:

No, its not that it isnt important. ITs that it has been discussed over and over again. Both sides have stated their opinion over and over again.

If you want me to go back and go over each resolution. Go over everyone in the world that thought their were WMD's their including the democrats. Quote everyone in the world, again, that mentions WMD's like Clinton and Kerry. Then I will mention how the Senate voted to authorize the Use of force.

You, in turn, will just ignore all that and call the President a liar without a single shred of proof that he knew anything different then everyone else.

Thats why Im not going to rehash the same arguement. Its been done time and time again by me and others. There are plenty of comments about it, go read them.

Sat Nov 6 2004 7:14 AM

Dave E.:

A few of the "shreds":

Listen. You're right, we can go over this and over this as you will then claim to be the only person to qualify fact and dismiss everything so widely reported as to insinuate a massive media cabal designed to discredit our beloved president. Hmmmm....if only you could make that danged press less critical.

Oh wait, I forgot about Fox.

Finally, I don't look at this as a mundane task equated to an annoyance. I respect that you have a differing opinion, but I take issue with your flippant treatment of it considering people are still getting killed because of it.

Sat Nov 6 2004 10:22 AM

Right Wing Robby:

Dave E.

Dont ever call me flippant over a war my country is in. You dont respect anything to make a statement like that. This conversation is over as I now have zero respect for you.

Sat Nov 6 2004 11:12 AM

Dave E.:

"Thats why Im not going to rehash the same arguement(sp). Its been done time and time again by me and others. There are plenty of comments about it, go read them."

Sounds flippant to me. And from your visceral response, my guess is you now realize it.

Condemn me, then close your ears. Textbook.

Buh bye.

Sat Nov 6 2004 11:30 AM

Mike of the Great White North:




Sat Nov 6 2004 4:50 PM


I am a liberal, a democrat, and am pretty depressed about the whole state of affairs in the USA.

If you think these last four years have been bad, you just wait and see what's to come.

The only nice thing is that the country will experience a very strong swing towards liberal/progressive values over the next 12 or so years, as the slow moving minds of the Red states start to really feel and see the pain and insanity their Republican masters are about to unleash.

But let's not talk about that for now. Instead, let's talk about the problems the Dems are having. Here's a very good op-ed piece in the New York Times:

Have a look at that, and do some serious thinking. Because the arguments I see the lefties making, in these comments, and elsewhere, are no good. They're not going to help us. We need to get over thinking that it's the Christians and the uneducated who've lost us the country.

It is by our own errors that we have lost the country.

And it is by our own efforts that we can take it back.

Have a look at the op-ed piece! Use your brains!


Oh, and to Right Wing Robbie, and all his Right Wing Buddies, I just want to say how really super impressed I am by your magnanimity. It's really the mark of generous and decent souls, the way you've approached the losers of the election with such open arms in these past few days. Truly. You are among the great-hearted. I'm super serious about this. You guys just blow me away. What fantastic people you are. No joke.

Sun Nov 7 2004 3:00 PM

Tom from Madison:

It's obvious that Bush lied about WMDs in the State of the Union Message. He seems to have a problem with the truth in general. He wouldn't go to the 9-11 committee without Dick Cheney by his side and the assurance that he wouldn't have to testify under oath. He wouldn't even allow his testimony to be recorded electronically. HOW CONVENIENT!

He commits a great injustice when he insists that the Iraqi war is being fought to help the Iraqi people become free. He has already caused tens of thousands of Iraqi deaths. He will likely cause untold thousands more. It is truly sad that "right-to-lifers" so easily look the other way when the lives lost are Iraqi. We don't even count those officially. We have over 1100 US military dead and numerous contractor deaths. Those contractor death totals don't seem to get reported either.

It is a true perversion of Christianity that Bush invokes the name of a God while creating the conditions where so many die. One of the truly scary things about this whole election is how right wing churches were used to organize for Bush. Isn't Jesus the Prince of Peace? I wonder what he must think of our "War President"? I want a President who lives by the commandment "Thou shalt not kill", not one who wants to ensure a safe place for nut-job justices to put tablets of the 10 commandments in their courtrooms.

Sun Nov 7 2004 9:00 PM


Hey Jim, I really like you site, and I was wondering what your take on the Florida election results is. First off, I found this information from

In short, it appears that in smaller counties (counties that used optical scan for tallying the ballots), the numbers were way off when it compared registered party members with "actual" votes. For example, in Liberty County, there were 4075 registered voters, 320 Republican and 3597 Democrats. However, the results show that there were 1921 votes for Bush and 1070 votes for Kerry. It is interesting to note that such a drastic difference like this only appears in the smaller counties of Florida. Basically, in Liberty County, Democrats outnumber Republicans 10 to 1, but Bush got twice as many votes than Kerry. How is that possible? I would really appreciate it if you looked into it.

The only decent counter argument that I can come up with is the possibility that people in smaller areas might simply vote who they feel is a more "moral candidate." According the CNN exit polls, 22% of people said moral values was the most important issue to them. Out of that 22%, 80% voted for Bush. Of course, this is a national result. This is just something I thought of when I forced myself to come up with a valid explaination other than vote tampering.

Well, thanks for making such a great site, and please keep up the good work.

Sun Nov 7 2004 10:18 PM

matt stark:

Greetings Jim.

You can't ignore terrorism. It won't just go away. It is a bad analogy.

Thanks for posting and for opening dialogue.


Thu Nov 18 2004 11:58 AM


I agree that terrorism, like the poor, will always be with us; if only for the simple reason that terrorism - that is, using violence or the threat thereof against civilians to effect political change - is a favourite method of elected governments and insurgent groupings alike.

Sun Oct 9 2005 8:22 AM

Jim Gilliam
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